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    #16
    Dear Mike,
    I'm a bit surprised myself, certainly after the discussion we had on the subject recently. I thought Albert's discovery only supports what we were already thinking. Not a doubt in my mind that this is 100% original. Just not sure what our conclusion should be?

    KR
    Philippe

    Comment

      #17
      i am not saying the badge is suspect....i just do not care for the mark and the fact that it is not raised indicates applied after production....i dont like the A marked flak badges also that do not have the raised mark...and what is the story with the A, S letters? have you ever seen an Assmann mark like that?
      i am not making idle speculation Albert...i have seen bogus marks added like this before. thats why i said a raised mark would lend credence whereas an engraved mark is suspect in my mind; especiallly when it has never been seen before....
      mike

      Originally posted by Philippe DB
      Dear Mike,
      I'm a bit surprised myself, certainly after the discussion we had on the subject recently. I thought Albert's discovery only supports what we were already thinking. Not a doubt in my mind that this is 100% original. Just not sure what our conclusion should be?

      KR
      Philippe

      Comment

        #18
        Dear Mike,

        Just a thought: This badge was supplied by another company to Assmann leaving them no other option than to stamp it.

        This of course still leaves the question open why they would have stamped it with a double mark. Alltough we know of more Assmann badges with double markings and stamped in marks, e.g the Assmann para and luft flak with a stamped in double mm A & L/64. Also most of their Pilot and Observer badges feature a stamped in logo. So for sure not an uncommon thing to do for Assmann.

        KR
        Philippe

        Comment

          #19
          Philippe...
          i do not like flaks with the stamped A mark generally...i will concede the para but will also say i am no expert on para badges...the fact that the mark is not even one seen before is also cause for concern imo....again we have seen many bizarre things so i am not dismissing the badge but until i see another mark like this one i will have to be cautious on this piece in saying it came from the Assmann company.
          mike

          Originally posted by Philippe DB
          Dear Mike,

          Just a thought: This badge was supplied by another company to Assmann leaving them no other option than to stamp it.

          This of course still leaves the question open why they would have stamped it with a double mark. Alltough we know of more Assmann badges with double markings and stamped in marks, e.g the Assmann para and luft flak with a stamped in double mm A & L/64. Also most of their Pilot and Observer badges feature a stamped in logo. So for sure not an uncommon thing to do for Assmann.

          KR
          Philippe

          Comment

            #20
            Thought Mike would like to see these images taken from an Assmann period catalogue. I agree that Assmann didn't seem to mark their badges with "A&S", but they certainly did with their other products.
            http://www.authenticmilitaria.com/_p...ssmannCat1.jpg
            http://www.authenticmilitaria.com/_p...ssmannCat2.jpg

            Comment

              #21
              I believe the mark is wartime and original to the badge.
              WAF LIFE COACH

              Comment

                #22
                Mike
                thanks for the pics...that makes it interesting again
                strange but interesting....
                mike

                Originally posted by Mike Tucker
                Thought Mike would like to see these images taken from an Assmann period catalogue. I agree that Assmann didn't seem to mark their badges with "A&S", but they certainly did with their other products.
                www.authenticmilitaria.com/_preview/AssmannCat1.jpg
                www.authenticmilitaria.com/_preview/AssmannCat2.jpg

                Comment

                  #23
                  Interesting discussion......

                  ......about the existence of the badge presented and it's authenticity as a 'missing link,' or something else entirely. I will present to you what could be a 'possible' scenario. Keep in mind that I am speculating here. The scenario deals with the fact that after the cessation of hostilities there apparently sprang up a 'cottage' industry, in the former Third Reich, to supply hordes of souvenir lusting G.I.'s.

                  O.K. The war has been going badly for the Third Reich and production, by Juncker ceases, perhaps sometime during the chaotic last few months or maybe keeps pace until the Allies roll into town.

                  So, now we have stocks of pre-produced badge bodies. They haven't been yet fitted with hinges or catches. Are they abandoned at the factory? Could be. Have they been packed away and hidden, or given to someone else to hide, because of the after-war restrictions of the swastika? Maybe. I could go on endlessly, I'm sure, about the possibilities.

                  Or maybe they were indeed completed by a company (Assmann) that still had the means to finish the stock that the original manufacturing company (Juncker) was unable to.

                  Perhaps a batch of unfinished Juncker badge bodies has survived the hostilities and has surfaced in someones (I don't know whose) hands along with a readily available supply of, wartime or not, catches and hinges. Let's postulate that they have been turned into complete badges. Not to the correct specs, of course, but enough so that it wouldn't matter to, or even be noticed by, souvenir hunters.

                  I know that one could continue to put various spins on the probability of the above having taken place. Hell I don't know......but it wouldn't surprise me at all if one considers the following: A nation's citizens, having just experienced the defeat of their country in a long and brutal conflict, their homeland being in ruins, rampant food and housing shortages, etc., etc., etc. are going to seek out any and all available means of surviving their winter of defeat.

                  And, as far as I know, this suggestion/scenario of badges being produced and supplied to the aforementioned souvenir hungry G.I.'s, post war, is more than a fantasy.

                  I certainly don't know if it may or may not have happened like I have suggested, but I believe that this, or something like it, could possibly supply the answer to the existence of these anomalous type of badges.

                  I will add this: These anomalous badges will continue to instigate an enormous amount of speculation as to their origins. My intent here is to suggest that there exist many roads to explore.......cause I sure as heck don't have the answer and one doesn't seem to be readily available either.

                  It also brings to mind the seemingly parallel issue of 'parts made' Third Reich daggers.

                  Just my $.02

                  -------------------------

                  Bruce

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Hi Bruce,


                    Speculation or not what are the alternatives taken in to account that the badges as well as the reverse hardware is authentic. Personnaly I'm confident that your not that far off.

                    Anyway once it comes to unmarked non-textbook badges/items we can only rely on our experience combined with gut feeling. If based upon these you feel good about a certain item IMO you should go for it.

                    So war time produced or assembled just after the war there should be more of these PAB's arround. If we all keep our eyes and ears open maybe one day we'll find the missing link that explains it's existance.

                    KR
                    Philippe

                    Comment

                      #25
                      I did work at a stamping plant as the production manager for 2 1/2 years. It is not uncommon for a manufacturer to sub contract certain pieces/parts to other sources and then finish the piece with their own logo. It happens all the time. I would also think that in war torn Germany this happened quite often as certain producers had their facilities damaged by bombs or the loss of materials through lack of transportation. Also, just because a maker mark is stamped in and not raised does not mean it was added after the war. All incuse relief marks were added after the badge blank was made. A good press operator can hit 200-250 hits in an hour, or about 2,000 a day. If all one needed was 2,000 maker markes on a certain badge it would be faster to stamp it in then alter the die. Die work is very time consuming. Just some food for thought.
                      Ed Maroli

                      Comment

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