Juncker PAB revisited

[Albert]

Dear All,

This Easter weekend was in many respects a collecting highlight. I got a LW Goblet, a nice paper grouping incl. three award documents from a member of J:R:199 "List", and last but not least a couple of PABs.

One of the PABs is what we have been calling "a Juncker". Its obverse is identical to my unmarked "Juncker" PAB with the typical hardware. It's reverse is different though. It is set up for the "typical Juncker" hardware, and has the upper and lower recess areas for the oval base plates. BUT, instead of that it has a simple hinge system and a hook that is directly soldered into the recess. AND, it is maker marked!

It is even double maker marked but not to Juncker; it is mm to Assmann! First, there is the stylized "A" and then there is the abbreviation "A&S". The markings are stamped into the metal, and unfortunately, hardly visibe on the picture. I will try to make better pics at work though.

Your opinions please!

Best regards,
Al

[Albert]

... and the reverse...

[Philippe DB]

Dear Albert,

Althought the maker marks aren't visible on the pictures you posted this for sure is an exiting discovery. Since the A&S mm is assumed to be an alternative logo of Assmann & Shöne it would make perfect sense to find both of them together.

The PAB is without a doubt the SC Juncker type. Just recently I discussed the possibility of a link between the Assmann, the Porsche and the so called Juncker PAB off line with Mike Pinkus & Skip. The only conclusion we were able to reach was that there was enough evidence in the grass design to link these badges in some way. You comming up with this badge only supports that we might have been on the right track.

I think we have two possibilities here. This is the massive variant of Assmann or there was somekind of collaboration between Assmann and Juncker. Asked some luftwaffe guys if the were aware of such a collaboration but nobody knew of it.

The reverse hardware is also very strange. untill know I never encountered a sc Juncker with anything else than the standard setup. So what do we have here a repair or hardware put on by Assmann . Would be interesting to see some close ups of the hinge and catch to see how it compares to the hardware Assmann used on their hollow PAB's

Are the maker markes stamped in?

Anyway great find and looking forward to some better pictures.

KR
Philippe

[Greg]

Hi Al,

Looks like you were busy over the weekend! Where is the A&S mark located on the reverse (I can't see it in the photo)?

Best regards,
Greg

[Albert]

Hi Guys,

Sure was The mm is stamped and can be seen as a faint mark in the red box.

I will shoot for better pics tomorrow.

Best regards,
Al

[skip]

Goody Goody, can´t wait to see the marks on this one.

Albert you are a lucky sod, I take it that the left hand badge is a silver "Juncker", one of the harder ones to find.

Skip

[Albert]

Hi Skip and All,
No, it's a bronze one. Here the details as per request. First the hook.

Best regards,
Al

[Albert]

...the hinge...

[Albert]

... the mm...

[Philippe DB]

Hi Albert

Strange, very strange .

No doubt in my mind that this is an original but the question is how to explain it's existance

If only it would have had the classic setup for this type of PAB's than maybe we could reached a conclusion. Now we can be sure that Assmann did produce this variant but was it the only company to produce it.

The hardware doesn't look like a repair from the pics you just posted but certainly the catch is what I would expect to see on an F&R. All the Assmanns PAB's I have ever seen had a round wire catch.

Like I wrote before, the little buggers are like insects a new species arround every corner

KR
Philippe

[Greg]

Hi Al,

That certainly looks like a typical Assmann PAB hinge, sticking way up like that. Good catch; I'm glad you finally talked the fellow out of it!

Best regards,
Greg

[Mike Pinkus]

this is very strange...you say the MM is stamped?
it looks raised to me which would be more of a positive.
the hinge as Greg states appears to be Assmann, though the hinge and catch both look to have been replaced(?) at some time....very interesting
mike
http://tankbadges.homestead.com

[Albert]

Phil, I wish they were around every corner...

Greg, thanks a lot. Excellent memory

Mike, mm is stamped; first I had a picture taken through a microscope, now that really looked like raised. Definitely no repair.

[Mike Pinkus]

ok....if this mark is stamped i am willing to say it was added post war to make the piece more desireable to a buyer. thus i would hesitate to say this piece is a "missing link". i have not seen this A maker with A S letters before and now being stamped instead of raised leads me to discount its authenticity (the mark)...not sure about the badge....

mike

Phil, I wish they were around every corner...

Greg, thanks a lot. Excellent memory

Mike, mm is stamped; first I had a picture taken through a microscope, now that really looked like raised. Definitely no repair.

[Albert]

with all due respect, I am surprised to read this unsupported speculation comming from a serious researcher. What happened Mike?

ok....if this mark is stamped i am willing to say it was added post war to make the piece more desireable to a buyer. thus i would hesitate to say this piece is a "missing link". i have not seen this A maker with A S letters before and now being stamped instead of raised leads me to discount its authenticity (the mark)...not sure about the badge....

mike