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**PBR** · 11-05-2010, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by Don Doering View Post

I know a guy who has a brother, whos uncle's cousins grandmother's son overheard a guy......

Still just a story.....

I agree with you 100%.
I don't like stories also.
But I like pictures, and the badges found were 100% text.
Don't know where, but they were real and very salty.

**Don D.** · 11-05-2010, 07:05 AM

I actually think most of what you say has some merit except for the use of the word TONS of facts. That is simply not the case. And the Hoffman photo just shows one badge as that is all that was required. To make the leap that it shows the ONLY style of BKA made is not supportable. That is also speculation.

Now, who made the Juncker connection to the H/HH badges? Why would Juncker have two different dies of the reverse? or was there more than one maker?

**Don D.** · 11-05-2010, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Andy B. View Post

Great discussion (and very civil

).
I was wondering (and I might be totally off base), but could there be a metal test that would be an indicator to the age or production style that could be used to determine authenticity of both styles of APBs?
I would think that the zinc used during wartime would be a slightly different chemical make up than that of a post war zinc. Now I do realize that it might be too difficult to tell the difference in badges made right after the end of hostilities, but it might help with badges in the '50s and up. I would also think that it could provide a link to ground dug badges and non ground dug badges.
Wasn't there a thread that was using a spectograms on RKs? Could it work on APBs?
Just curious.
Andy

PS I hope my terminology is correct, one its early here and two I'm not a scientist (nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Suites last night

)

Oh sure, use a scientific approach instead of your gut instincts......

I think this has a lot of promise but then what if all the samples are the same? I can hear the stories now, "They used old scrap to make the repos etc..."

**PBR** · 11-05-2010, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Don Doering View Post

I actually think most of what you say has some merit except for the use of the word TONS of facts. That is simply not the case. And the Hoffman photo just shows one badge as that is all that was required. To make the leap that it shows the ONLY style of BKA made is not supportable. That is also speculation.

Now, who made the Juncker connection to the H/HH badges? Why would Juncker have two different dies of the reverse? or was there more than one maker?

Don, is it speculation to say that H\HH are proven by pictures to be pre-45 and Flats are not?
I personally call it "a fact".
I'm not saying that H\HH were the only BKA made (don't forget about the "Light" version and the Blue Sworded, that appear to be also real), I'm just saying that there's no evidence for the Flats to be pre-45.
So, untill the day that evidence would eventually surface, we cannot call them "100% Original badges".
That's it.

There might be no TONS but several for sure, while we got no even ONE for the Flats...

As far as I remember the connection between H\HH and Juncker was made by some of the guys there on the GAF.
I don't get this thing of the reverse; as far as I know Type 1. were made with H\HH reverse only.
About the makers, I don't know, but if there were more than one, then there was more than one die around Germany, then the "Dies lost during the Juncker bombing" turn out to be totally BS, don't you agree?

**Don D.** · 11-05-2010, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by T.K. View Post

Don, is it speculation to say that H\HH are proven by pictures to be pre-45 and Flats are not?
I personally call it "a fact".
I'm not saying that H\HH were the only BKA made (don't forget about the "Light" version and the Blue Sworded, that appear to be also real), I'm just saying that there's no evidence for the Flats to be pre-45.
So, untill the day that evidence would eventually surface, we cannot call them "100% Original badges".
That's it.

There might be no TONS but several for sure, while we got no even ONE for the Flats...

As far as I remember the connection between H\HH and Juncker was made by some of the guys there on the GAF.
I don't get this thing of the reverse; as far as I know Type 1. were made with H\HH reverse only.
About the makers, I don't know, but if there were more than one, then there was more than one die around Germany, then the "Dies lost during the Juncker bombing" turn out to be totally BS, don't you agree?

Proof of one does not automatically disprove the other. That's all, plain and simple. Nothing more and nothing less. Threads that are started like "I don't believe in Flatback BKAs" don't prove anything either. Because someone doesn't like an item doesn't make it bad any more than liking them makes them real. There are too many assumptions and not enough facts right now. Until more facts arise, a smart person would only by the one shown in the Hoffman photo unless he has a tolerance for disappointment. But, and here's the rub, there are several styles of H/HH BKAs so of all of them only the one pictured can be assumed to be good. And of those, which have the exact reverse of the one in the photo?

Testing metals is a good idea IMO. Much more so than "not liking" a badge.

**Don D.** · 11-05-2010, 07:55 AM

Put another way, if the first bird I see is a duck, should I assume all birds can swim?

**PBR** · 11-05-2010, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by Don Doering View Post

Proof of one does not automatically disprove the other. That's all, plain and simple. Nothing more and nothing less. Threads that are started like "I don't believe in Flatback BKAs" don't prove anything either. Because someone doesn't like an item doesn't make it bad any more than liking them makes them real. There are too many assumptions and not enough facts right now. Until more facts arise, a smart person would only by the one shown in the Hoffman photo unless he has a tolerance for disappointment. But, and here's the rub, there are several styles of H/HH BKAs so of all of them only the one pictured can be assumed to be good. And of those, which have the exact reverse of the one in the photo?

Testing metals is a good idea IMO. Much more so than "not liking" a badge.

Don, I'll just leave it.
It's far more than just "I don't like it" and I've produced many facts, but at this point I'll better leave.
Smart people know how to read facts, and I think I've produced more than enough.

In relation to the reverse, the one in the Hoffmann photo is of course a H\HH badge, showing front features typical of H\HH badges, unless you are not trying to say that it may also be a Flatback, but I don't know any example of original BKA showing H\HH front features and Flat-back.

PS-The Blue Sworded is also pictured by pre-45 magazines, so, it's proven to be real. I would personally leave the "Light version" outside this discussion, since I consider it very likely a private or very small firm production, but that's just my opinion.

**Don D.** · 11-05-2010, 08:46 AM

I suggest then that we agree to disagree until such time as new information comes forward.

**-=Re-Sa=-** · 11-05-2010, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by vox View Post

T.K: say true story ! I newer bolive selers storys but this is true because I have its and friend of my found its.

Hi Vox,

I did not know, that you are member here.

Yes Vox is ovner from 3 of 5 BKA-s founded in this barn.

Regards
Sasha

**Don D.** · 11-05-2010, 11:24 AM

I for one, would love to see them.

**-=Re-Sa=-** · 11-05-2010, 11:45 AM

I have found 2 of them, also third must be somwhere on my pc.... hope that Vox will be not angry on me if I post his pics here:

Attached Files

**Andy B.** · 11-05-2010, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by Don Doering View Post

Oh sure, use a scientific approach instead of your gut instincts......

I think this has a lot of promise but then what if all the samples are the same? I can hear the stories now, "They used old scrap to make the repos etc..."

True enough, but at least it might be a starting point. Especially if a difference is found.

**PBR** · 11-05-2010, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by -=Re-Sa=-

I have found 2 of them, also third must be somwhere on my pc.... hope that Vox will be not angry on me if I post his pics here:

I can confirm this, seems the same badges that I was shown years back.
Salty textbook 1.2 type (late production) IMHO.

Attached Files

band1_111.jpg (49.2 KB, 199 views)

**Don D.** · 11-05-2010, 02:18 PM

They look good to me. Too bad the pin is so rusty. It would be nice to see the tooling marks.

**PBR** · 11-05-2010, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by Don Doering View Post

They look good to me. Too bad the pin is so rusty. It would be nice to see the tooling marks.

Don, as far as I was told the condition of the pin is bad since they were found "nailed" to a wall in some post-war Yugo police barrack or something like that.

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