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**-=Re-Sa=-** · 11-04-2010, 07:24 PM

Hi all!

...interesting thread, I must say I am not beliver in this flatback APBs. In my country was many APB digged from the ground but never one single flatback. I think at least one must be found, if we count how many POW was stationed in my country. I know eksamples when one man has found 3 APB in his garden, latter he find out that in his place was station for POW. In one case was 5 APB founded in one old barn, all badges hanged on the nail. 3 of them have my colegue in his collection. Also I know many digged APB-s, cca 20... all acknowledged versions, but never flatback!
I know this not prove anything, but throw serious doubt on this badges!
I want realy see some cases when is this badge founded by a german war veteran?
regards
Sasha

**Thomas Durante** · 11-04-2010, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Don't ask me to post links to all the threads with fake 'ground dug items'. I don't have the time and the forum probably does not have the bandwidth. Perhaps you might want to do a search and see all the fake badges, helmets, complete footlockers with uniforms and other 'treasures' offered by diggers.

And likewise, we have seen just as many "fake vet" stories over the years as well. One of the first things we learn in this hobby is to "trust the badge, not the story!" I don't think its mal-intent at all, but some guys just don't remember where they got stuff from. Perfect case in point - my wife's grandfather gave me a German helmet that he swore he picked up on the battlefield in 1945....yet turned out to be a 60s Spanish repro.

Tom

**Gabor Tischler** · 11-05-2010, 12:32 AM

Hi Tom,

You are right!

Big battles were in my Country ( in Hungary ). You can find a lot of electric detector guys, whoes looking for the stuffs in the ground. Most of them condition, wich are be found are very bad and very rare those number of the stuffs, wich are good condition. You can see here dogtages, helmets, bayonets and badges and ammunitions...etc. The condition are always bad, bad and bad.

Some dealer are trying to sale these items mixed the fake items in the militaria markets or shops. They say: Original stuffs in the grounds!

Here is an example, what I posted on the WAF one year ago. I got an offer at that time, that this BKA was found in the ground, what I show to you again. Very bad fake, never was this BKA in the ground, perhaps flower ground in the rooms.

Each week to see alleged ground found items treated with acid in my Country: EK's CCC's...etc. The sellers say: ground found items.

Here is the link of BKA fake: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=397549&page=2

Best regards,
Gabor

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

And likewise, we have seen just as many "fake vet" stories over the years as well. One of the first things we learn in this hobby is to "trust the badge, not the story!" I don't think its mal-intent at all, but some guys just don't remember where they got stuff from. Perfect case in point - my wife's grandfather gave me a German helmet that he swore he picked up on the battlefield in 1945....yet turned out to be a 60s Spanish repro.

Tom

**PBR** · 11-05-2010, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Don't ask me to post links to all the threads with fake 'ground dug items'. I don't have the time and the forum probably does not have the bandwidth. Perhaps you might want to do a search and see all the fake badges, helmets, complete footlockers with uniforms and other 'treasures' offered by diggers.
Bob Hritz

As stated before, ground dug examples examined were not even offered for sale but in most of the cases kept by who found them.

**PBR** · 11-05-2010, 02:34 AM

Originally posted by -=Re-Sa=- View Post

In one case was 5 APB founded in one old barn, all badges hanged on the nail. 3 of them have my colegue in his collection.

I can confirm this: it was an old Yugoslavian Police or Military barrack or HQ if I'm not wrong: I've seen the pictures of the badges found, or at least 3 of them, and they were beautiful H\HH textbook.

**PBR** · 11-05-2010, 02:36 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

And likewise, we have seen just as many "fake vet" stories over the years as well. One of the first things we learn in this hobby is to "trust the badge, not the story!" I don't think its mal-intent at all, but some guys just don't remember where they got stuff from. Perfect case in point - my wife's grandfather gave me a German helmet that he swore he picked up on the battlefield in 1945....yet turned out to be a 60s Spanish repro. Tom

I agree.
And worst, why in the hell German BKA winners veterans were awarded in the 99% of the cases with H\HH?
Isn't this pretty strange?

**Don D.** · 11-05-2010, 04:23 AM

Originally posted by T.K. View Post

I agree.
And worst, why in the hell German BKA winners veterans were awarded in the 99% of the cases with H\HH?
Isn't this pretty strange?

That depends upon the production timeline of the flat backs. Juncker bombed out in Dec 44. New contracts awarded Jan/Feb 45. Time required to tool up. Production starts, badges ready for shipment, orders for awards suspended April?

I think the real question should be,"When did production cease?"

**Don D.** · 11-05-2010, 04:39 AM

This is just a "story" much like any other barn find story.

**PBR** · 11-05-2010, 04:50 AM

Originally posted by Don Doering View Post

This is just a "story" much like any other barn find story.

It may be, but badges are real and are very, very salty.

**PBR** · 11-05-2010, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by Don Doering View Post

That depends upon the production timeline of the flat backs. Juncker bombed out in Dec 44. New contracts awarded Jan/Feb 45. Time required to tool up. Production starts, badges ready for shipment, orders for awards suspended April?

I think the real question should be,"When did production cease?"

That's also fine to me.
But in this case then we must do a bit of math in relation to the tons of "Flatbacks-acquired-in-USA-during-the-60's-that-are-100%-originals" present nowadays in far too many collections....
If new contracts were awarded Jan.\Feb. 1945, thing that we don't know anyway being pure speculation, I would presume that very few badges were made, so, very very few awarded, then, very very very few survived and were able to reach nowadays collections.

Anyway, even if very few were produced, I would expect at least 1 ground dug example or from some German veteran somewhere...don't you agree?

I actually think the real question is "Did the production of H\HH ever cease?" or "Did the production of the Flatbacks ever start?".
The reply is "Why in the H should we think that the H\HH production ceased or the Flatbacks production started?".
Why should the production of a badge cease ifthe factory was bombed?
If they would eventually bomb the Audi factory, do you think they won't do R8 anymore?
H\HH badges were awarded at least untill the last months of war, this is known, so, H\HH badge were at least produced simultaneusly to Flatbacks, if really pre-45.

As far as I know, the bombing of the BKA factory section (we don't even know for sure if H\HH were Juncker made, it's just an opinion, sure more realiable than the tale spread for ages by "old style collectors" about the Flatbacks being Juncker produced that made a lot o confusion and produced a lot of troubles....BTW it's the "new and hated generation" of "young" collectors that discovered that was pure BS...), the cease of the H\HH production and the start of the Flatback production is pure legend, nothing has ever surfaced to prove these claims.
We have just a bunch of good quality Flatbacks badges that may had been produced in 1945 or in 1965, we don't know.

BTW, I've no fightings pitbull here, since I don't sell and I don't collect Flats.

**vox** · 11-05-2010, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by Don Doering View Post

This is just a "story" much like any other barn find story.

T.K: say true story ! I newer bolive selers storys but this is true because I have its and friend of my found its.

**Don D.** · 11-05-2010, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by T.K. View Post

That's also fine to me.
But in this case then we must do a bit of math in relation to the tons of "Flatbacks-acquired-in-USA-during-the-60's-that-are-100%-originals" present nowadays in far too many collections....
If new contracts were awarded Jan.\Feb. 1945, thing that we don't know anyway being pure speculation, I would presume that very few badges were made, so, very very few awarded, then, very very very few survived and were able to reach nowadays collections.

I'm thinking of a scenario more on the lines of the Dachau Hoard of SS items. Perhaps produced but never made it into the supply system so stored in a warehouse etc....

Anyway, even if very few were produced, I would expect at least 1 ground dug example or from some German veteran somewhere...don't you agree?

See my comment above.

I actually think the real question is "Did the production of H\HH ever cease?" or "Did the production of the Flatbacks ever start?".
The reply is "Why in the H should we think that the H\HH production ceased or the Flatbacks production started?".
Why should the production of a badge cease ifthe factory was bombed?
If they would eventually bomb the Audi factory, do you think they won't do R8 anymore?
H\HH badges were awarded at least untill the last months of war, this is known, so, H\HH badge were at least produced simultaneusly to Flatbacks, if really pre-45.

To assume the Juncker dies survived the bombing will give lots of RK owners a reason to ponder.... If the dies were destroyed then the logical assumption is that new dies needed to be made. If S&L made them they would have made them to suit thier production methods, which, if you look at thier combat badges, wa the production of massive badges and not H/HH.

As far as I know, the bombing of the BKA factory section (we don't even know for sure if H\HH were Juncker made, it's just an opinion, sure more realiable than the tale spread for ages by "old style collectors" about the Flatbacks being Juncker produced that made a lot o confusion and produced a lot of troubles....BTW it's the "new and hated generation" of "young" collectors that discovered that was pure BS...), the cease of the H\HH production and the start of the Flatback production is pure legend, nothing has ever surfaced to prove these claims.
We have just a bunch of good quality Flatbacks badges that may had been produced in 1945 or in 1965, we don't know.

I don't discount the stories of the older collectors anymore than I reject the findings of the newer collectors. I look for evidence, which in this case is lacking.

BTW, I've no fightings pitbull here, since I don't sell and I don't collect Flats.

If you own an H/HH badge you have a vested interest in them being real just as an owner of a flatback has an interest in them being good. One tactic is to ensure one is good by disparaging the other. For years the HH badges were thought to be bad. Now, some convienent barn/ground finds make them all good and the flat backs bad. See where this goes? Only period evidence will seal the deal for me.

Some thoughts...

**Don D.** · 11-05-2010, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by vox View Post

T.K: say true story ! I newer bolive selers storys but this is true because I have its and friend of my found its.

I know a guy who has a brother, whos uncle's cousins grandmother's son overheard a guy......

Still just a story.....

**Andy B.** · 11-05-2010, 06:26 AM

Great discussion (and very civil

).
I was wondering (and I might be totally off base), but could there be a metal test that would be an indicator to the age or production style that could be used to determine authenticity of both styles of APBs?
I would think that the zinc used during wartime would be a slightly different chemical make up than that of a post war zinc. Now I do realize that it might be too difficult to tell the difference in badges made right after the end of hostilities, but it might help with badges in the '50s and up. I would also think that it could provide a link to ground dug badges and non ground dug badges.
Wasn't there a thread that was using a spectograms on RKs? Could it work on APBs?
Just curious.
Andy

PS I hope my terminology is correct, one its early here and two I'm not a scientist (nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn Suites last night

)

**PBR** · 11-05-2010, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by Don Doering View Post

To assume the Juncker dies survived the bombing will give lots of RK owners a reason to ponder.... If the dies were destroyed then the logical assumption is that new dies needed to be made. If S&L made them they would have made them to suit thier production methods, which, if you look at thier combat badges, wa the production of massive badges and not H/HH.

I don't discount the stories of the older collectors anymore than I reject the findings of the newer collectors. I look for evidence, which in this case is lacking.

If you own an H/HH badge you have a vested interest in them being real just as an owner of a flatback has an interest in them being good. One tactic is to ensure one is good by disparaging the other. For years the HH badges were thought to be bad. Now, some convienent barn/ground finds make them all good and the flat backs bad. See where this goes? Only period evidence will seal the deal for me.

Sorry Don, I respect you a lot and you know but I think your approach to this subject is totally wrong.
First, not assuming that Juncker dies survived the bombing, since we don't even know if Juncker produced BKA....I'm just saying that claim that since a factory was bombed then production of a badge would cease is simply unacceptable.
I've explained why, and that's very, very clear for anybody looking for real facts.
We are talking about tales, do you realize this?
You are asking me to prove you that tales, supported by NO EVIDENCES, are actually lies....they are not lies, they are not even real, they are just speculation.
You have some Flatbacks badges and you actually know nothing about them, except for the fact that they are medium quality produced badges.
Is this enough to claim that they are pre-45, that H\HH were produced by Juncker and that H\HH production ceased after Juncker was bombed?
Is this some sort of candid camera or what?
There is no evidence that Juncker produced BKA, H\HH or Flatbacks, no evidence that Juncker section of BKA production was bombed, no evidence of any BKA die destroyed by bombs at Junckers.....what are we talking about, I really don't get it!

The evidence is that Old Collectors spread a LOT of BS saying that Flatbacks were Juncker produced, and, at least in this case, Young Collectors discovered that that was actually a tale, since they were very likely NOT produced by them.
Or at least there's NOTHING to prove that they were, so I would call it PURE SPECULATION.

You say I have fighting dogs here since I also own H\HH and I want them to be real, as Flabacks owners does: you are wrong again, I don't, H\HH ARE actually real, it's not up to me to prove so, tons of FACTS and EVIDENCES are known (Pictures in wear, examples from German veterans and US-Vets bring backs, ground dug examples, pictures on pre-45 newspaper) and they show with no doubt that H\HH were produced and awarded pre-1945.
Can you say the same thing for the Flats?
No, you can't.

There's no convenience on my side, no fighting cocks, no tactics, I don't care at all about Flatbacks and I don't have to prove that Flats are bad, you have to prove that they are not if you are able to: H\HH are real, this is welll proven by FACTS and PICTURES, and the ones that said in the past that they were fakes did it for convenience or for pure lack of knowledge and research.
This is the reason why, since the date of the Hoffmann press pictures was discovered, such "old grannies" don't show up here to reply anymore as they screamed in the past, since the BS tale that Flats were the Early type producted in early 1944 by Juncker was proven to be a LEGEND.
And this wasn't claimed by me, but by Hitler's Personal Photographer Hoffmann in date 02\1944: and that is more than enough for any chicken involved in this fight IMPO.

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