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**skip** · 02-13-2004, 06:49 PM

Heres my bronze, clearly zinc AGMuK, it weighs in at 34,5grms. Considering its got the massive pin thats probably about the same as Ivans example.
I agree with Frank(sorry Ivan), have seen lots of heavily plated clasps offered as buntmetal pieces, on closer inspection always zinc though.
Another thing going against Ivans clasp being buntmetal is the hollow pin, this, for me at least, clearly places the piece as very late war, displaying the same type economy pin as the UBoot Clasp, and those are definatly only in zinc. Or has anybody got a buntmetal one

Skip

Attached Files

CCC bronze AGMuK type 2.jpg (95.7 KB, 411 views)

**IVAN** · 02-14-2004, 03:07 AM

Dear Frank ( and Skip),

I like that sometime ( must say the true, very rare ! ) we can discuss with different ideas around a badge !

This is not the first time in forum speak around ccc zinc or tombak.......

Unfortunately not always we can resolve who has raison through a thread and photos, would be too easy, and this is a case of that !
Sure I agree, mine or Detlev's bronze badge, cannot be called tombak type done with alloy used in pre-war or just in beginnen of war, IT WAS EDIT IN THE END OF 1942 ! but , really , in hands ( and a bit from photos too ) if someone can understand something around alloy used in war time, CANNOT BE SAY is done in zinc, I have severals in zinc type and they look very differents, I have touched several examples - and I thought Detlev too touch many of ccc in a month - of the same firm in zinc and can see are different.

This badge was NEVER cover with silver paint or another materials, ( what we see is simple dirty, never clean, ) it didn't need because it looked just silver himself, so from this too we can understand is not zinc, if you don't paint a zinc badge, is evident !

maybe if you will come in Stuttgart messe this year, can be an occasion to find again us and to directly talk to Detlev of it, with the badge in the hands, in front of a beautiful beer!

is right, I haven't a laboratory and I will not touch it for experiments ( is always a nice original badge ) , is NOT in classic tombak alloy but is NOT is zinc - or finezinc , it looks exactly the same material , for example, as the wreath of many pilot badges midle war time ( and this award was edit in that time ) of Juncker or BSW or Imme owned and showed from many members, as I tried to show in photo, especially in the worn parts, this badges are always called tombak heavy pieces or buntmetall, but maybe is not so evident for the scanner light

. Sure this piece , for its details , is done early .

.....these are only my personal thoughts ........

**Frank Heukemes** · 02-14-2004, 04:20 AM

Dear Ivan,

I could imagine it is a "Feinzink" that has a strong German silver (Neusilber) or white metal alloy percentage. But it surely is not Tombak which should be yellowish-reddish (thanks, Paul) under the plating. Not talking about your CCC especially, but I have not seen a so called Tombak CCC where a yellowish-reddish metal came through under the silver finish. I would truely like to see one.

On another note, has anybody ever seen a Cupal CCC?

**Sergey** · 02-14-2004, 05:07 AM

Hi all. I am with guys, who don't believe in tombak CCCs. Persanally my opinion that tombak, newsilber and other good metal CCC were never issued. I believe that all these badges made from different zinkalloys and the colour of badges depend only from metal which is in alloy with zink.

**Thomas Durante** · 02-14-2004, 05:38 AM

Another point to look for on so called Tombak CCCs is the slight bubbling, usually on the back. As far as I am aware, this would only happen on a zink badge, not tombak. I have a bronze Gablonz CCC that was sold to me as Tombak. There is no place on it where I can see zink coming through. The tip of the grenade is slightly worn, giving it a nice yellowish bronze color and I believe that is the reason it was sold as Tombak. On the back, there are several very small bubbles starting to form and I belive that this is because the base metal is zink.

Tom D.

**Albert** · 02-14-2004, 06:38 AM

I am yet to see what's called a "Buntmetall" CCC. All of the ones discussed herein are zinkers.

Best regards,
Al

**Tim B.** · 02-15-2004, 06:17 PM

I have reservations about posting this, but...

I say this because I recently returned a nice bronze CCC to Detlev that was made from this so-called "tombak". Before I get started though, I want to say a couple of things.

1) I will be making a few posts here on this topic over the next few minutes and would appreciate if anybody coming into this to hold off so my posts and PICS can run successively.

2) Detlev is not the only dealer that sometimes sells these clasps marked "tombak", in all three classes.

3) That Detlev still believes this clasp I am about to show as tombak in his opinion, even after showing him the same PICS I will post here. So, I don't feel one bit he is trying to deceive anyone, this is just his belief in the matter. I want that straight as I highly respect the man and his opinions and have asked him for advice several times over the years.

4) Hope these PICS don't offend anyone, just wanted to show what the clasp looked like that I once had.

With that said and after holding this clasp in-hand and closely examening it, it is in my opinion, not what I would call tombak. It certainly does not come close to the "tombak" badges that I have in Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine fields.

After seeing the details of what I believe to be zinc coming through on the highlights and discussing these points with Tom D. and Frank H., I am in agreement that this is not tombak in the true sense of the word.

Sorry Ivan and others, I don't agree here with you guys at all, at least in this case. Perhaps the special issue ones presented by Hitler or Himmler or....?

Now the PICS. I like to be able to show the PICS as not to have to click on a link, but will use both styles if there is a close-up of the main displayed PIC. I would recommend viewing all IMO for a better understanding of the clasp I once owned.

The certificate that came with this clasp listed the piece as:

Close combat clasp in bronze. Tombak, maker "FEC WE Peekhaus Berlin Ausf.
A.G.M.u.K", very good bronze.

Measurements: W: 97,26 mm H: 26,53 mm Weight: 33,41 g

Price 400 Euro

Attached Files

CCC f700.JPG (62.4 KB, 322 views)

**Tim B.** · 02-15-2004, 06:23 PM

Close-up of the center

You can start to see the zinc coming through on the left wing and left edge highpoints. The grenade shows some slight damage and zinc as well. IMO

Tim

**Tim B.** · 02-15-2004, 06:32 PM

The reverse

I will post PICS of the back straight on, angled with the pin open, a close-up of the left and right marks. Enjoy!

You may see what could be zinc bubbling near the letter "A" on the right.

Also note how the center of the pin is cut flat on the top. I have seen this on another bronze CCC for sale by another dealer--also marked as tombak. Though it was 100 Euros cheaper!

Tim

Attached Files

**Tim B.** · 02-15-2004, 06:36 PM

Back to the zinc!

Continuing on the front with some more close-ups. I think you'll be hard pressed to tell me this is tombak after these.

Tim

Attached Files

CCCtop700.JPG (68.1 KB, 313 views)

**Tim B.** · 02-15-2004, 06:39 PM

Another one, a little closer

.

Attached Files

CCCtopcloseup700.JPG (65.7 KB, 302 views)

**Tim B.** · 02-15-2004, 06:45 PM

Last one

The grenade.

That's it, I'm finished. Thanks for waiting and looking forward to more comments. Actually, I would like to hear from Detlev on this as well.

As this being my first CCC and wanting a really nice "tombak" one...I was a bit disappointed for the $460. I shelled out at the time, which was $100. too much IMO.
Tim

Attached Files

CCCgrenade closeup700.JPG (91.9 KB, 301 views)

**skip** · 02-15-2004, 07:35 PM

I agree absolutley with you Tim. Clearly zinc showing on the eagles wing.
Really great pics. to prove your point, compliment on the closeups.
Still a really nice clasp even if it is´nt Tombac. But 400Euro is a bit over the top.

Skip

**John T** · 02-15-2004, 08:20 PM

Looks like a zinc with a very strong finish. I also doubt that the hinge and catch assembly would be found on anything other than a zince piece.

John

**Lorenzo Brown** · 02-15-2004, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by militarybuyer

Looks like a zinc with a very strong finish. I also doubt that the hinge and catch assembly would be found on anything other than a zince piece.

John

I agree that it is zinc!!

This is an important thread because it shows how a well-preserved zinc badge can fool even the most sophisticated dealers, authors and collectors.

IMO...the KEY here is the cast-in catch and hinge. THINK ABOUT IT!!! WHY create such "cast-in" devices if they were not necessary?

And HOW would you die-strike such a badge? I think it would be impractical if not impossible to strike in the intricate devices seen on this badge. The WEIGHT of the badge is just "proof of the pudding".

I think the real value of this thread is to show how a well-preserved zinc badge is virtually indistinguishable from a tombak badge. Too many collectors devalue zinc badges because of how they appear today after 60+ years of oxidation...without realizing how beautiful and fine they were when issued!

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