Sniper Badge Set

[Frank Heukemes]

Danke, Dietrich, very informative!

[Chris Boonzaier]

If Allied troops were not even able to distinguish between SS and Panzer units (Totenkopf collar tabs), I wonder how anybody among them would have known what this badge was all about. I am sure this badge was even quite unknown among German soldiers durung the war years. Nothing says or indicates "Sniper", so why the fear to wear it? This over and over repeated story makes no sense to me and sounds strange. Under these aspects it would have been more deadly to wear a HJ small caliber marksman badge which might have looked more like "Sniper" to an Ally soldier.

I assume the first things allied intellegance officers would have done would have been to try and find out what the new badge meant...
I know a sniper (he had never heard of the badge) who told me the first thing he did when running from the russians was get rid of anything that made him look like a sniper.
personally I would only have worn this for my wedding photo and on leave way, way, WAAAAAAAAY away from the enemy.
That the allied info books did not have this is no wonder, it was a new and rare award, they didnt have the AP badge or navy or Luftwaffe honour clasps either...

As for Dietrichs post, I assume the badges shown are for the 1957 version, bot for the bundeswehr, I am sure someone else can confirm that (other than the fact no german sniper in the Bundeswehr has had 20 kills, tha badges are pictured as 57 versions that may be worn (way back when) by ex Wehrmacht men. As the BW doesnt even like to give medals and some ministers would like them to wear peace signs it is unlikely they would be the only modern army to have an official badge baased on number of kills...

[Paul Massucci]

I can't make a comment on the patches posted by Bill S. either for or against the genuiness , I simply don't have enough knowledge on this award to do so. But I do remember that ever since I first started collecting in the early '70's exapled of these badges were always viewed withsuspicion and were discussed with mostly negative comments being made about them, ie; fakes/never produced/never awarded etc. etc. But with each passing year more and more knowledge comes to light on these and allother awards of the 3rd Reich.

My first reaction after reading some of the replys was the same as Dietrich's, so I pulled TM-E30-451 from the bookshelve and found the same info Dietrich provided. So the awards were known about at some level, whether the avarage GI in the field had such knowledge is a highly speculative question. Whether the reciepient of such an award would when faced with imminent capture tears this award from his tunic is also a speculative question. Sure doing so may have have saved him from "bieng shot on the spot" but after capture his captors would most likely find the info on his being awarded the sniper'sbadge in his papers anyway.

I find the line of logic above more in tune with the AP badge and based on my knowledge of "anti-partsan warfare" and the participants on both sides more applicable, but based on the same knowledge I don't believe whether wearing an AP or having been awarded one, would change the odds of a German soldier captured during such an engagement finding himself in a POW camp any different than if he had not been.

So while a the "tearing off" of such awards is a logical and valid point of view it carries no weight in determining whether these awards are good or not. The only I think I do know for sure about these awards is I see an whole lot more of them offered for sale the past several years than I did 30 years ago.
Just my 2 cents worth.

PS- TM-E30-451which I mention and Dietrich posted illustrations from was an offical War Department Technical Manual dated 15 March 1945.

[Dietrich Maerz]

QUOTE:

That the allied info books did not have this is no wonder, it was a new and rare award, they didnt have the AP badge or navy or Luftwaffe honour clasps either...

As for Dietrichs post, I assume the badges shown are for the 1957 version, bot for the bundeswehr, I am sure someone else can confirm that (other than the fact no german sniper in the Bundeswehr has had 20 kills, tha badges are pictured as 57 versions that may be worn (way back when) by ex Wehrmacht men. As the BW doesnt even like to give medals and some ministers would like them to wear peace signs it is unlikely they would be the only modern army to have an official badge baased on number of kills...<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Chris,

please read my thread again. The pictures I posted are out of an ORIGINAL USA ARMY BOOK titled HANDBOOK OF THE GERMAN MILITARY FORCES, EDITION 15 MARCH 1945, United States Government Printing Office Washington 1945, based on informations available up to 15 February 1945.
It shows the real thing!

Dietrich

[Gregory Koepp]

from what i have read and seen, in books and in collections that are said to be real have the white line going thrugh it's eye alot more than what yours is showing. so my opion if needed is that they are all fakes.

greg

[Chris Boonzaier]

"""please read my thread again. The pictures I posted are out of an ORIGINAL USA ARMY BOOK titled HANDBOOK OF THE GERMAN MILITARY FORCES, EDITION 15 MARCH 1945, United States Government Printing Office Washington 1945, based on informations available up to 15 February 1945"""


Ooops, statement partially withdrawn then...

We can guess, second guess, and surmise, but fact is, all soldiers hate an enemy sniper.
An AP badge on the western front meant really nothing, but a sniper???

A personal opinion, that has nothing to do with if I think this badge is good or not (me thinko no-o).... but dont you have to be a radical dumb ass to advertise to the guys who may capture you...that you have cold bloodedly shot 20-40 or 60 of their friends while hiding out of sight?

Never mind ripping the badge off, I would have kept it at home to impress the wife and brought it nowhere near the front... and when the Allies captured my ass after I had thrown my rifle in the creek I would have tried the "I know nothing... I vos only a Baker" way of placating a sweating angry as hell GI, Tommy or canuck whose friends I had just shot.

I would not have bet my once chance on survival on folks not recognising a badge.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Chris,


this thread is not about the stupidity of wearing a Snipers Badge, it's about "was there one or not" and "how does the real thing look".
I completely agree with your statement and might add the same was maybe true for "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" and such.

Here's a picture from Detlev Niemann's book.

[MGN]

Hello everyone,
Here is one that Bill Shea has on the site:
http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPages/Medals/m014.htm

Thanks Michael

[MGN]

Hey everyone,
I just wanted to bring up one point, it will be very easy to add the silver or gold twist to increase value if someone had an original example
Michael

[stogieman]

Interesting.....

Just a couple of points.... if the threads on the front are supposed to be yellow... why are the one's on Bill's site white?

I've heard in a couple of places, including earlier in this thread, that originals have the line "through the eye".... but the one shown in Detlev's catalogue, does not.

Here's an example sold by Detlev earlier this year.
(Photo courtesy of and © Detlev Niemann; Hamburg, Germany)

[stogieman]

Another example

Again, sold by Detlev:
(Photo courtesy of and © Detlev Niemann; Hamburg, Germany)

[Jan Arne S]

Hi Guys !

Just want to show You this pic .
I found this is a period news paper . NS " Fritt Folk " The Norwegian Nazi Party offical news paper under the War .

" In appreciation of the single soldiers highly contribution as sniper and to value the single soldiers achieved results has "Der Fuhrer" instituted Sniper Badge for Army and SS - units . "

Jan Arne

[Robin Lumsden]

I think we can agree the following.

1. A Sniper Badge was produced pre-May'45 (as testified to by German Press reports of the Himmler presentation ceremony);

2. The Allies knew very well what the Sniper Badge was for;

3. Very few would have been presented;

4. Only an idiot would have worn one if anywhere near the front-line;

5. They were remade (officially) post-1957;

6. Very few were ever seen pre-late 1980s;

7. They now appear in abundance.

On that basis, and irrespective of whose dealer sites or catalogues they have appeared in, I think we should be very sceptical of any of the badges currently doing the rounds, until such time as a verified original 'from source' can be produced for comparison.

[stogieman]

Good Summary!

Hi Robin, a good summary, thus far.
The ones sold by Detlev Niemann were the first one's I had seen on his site in over five years. It's interesting, that the really rare pieces will appear so infrequently on a dealer's site, who strives to maintain their integrity. In addition, the badges shown here by me all appeared on US Dealer's websites after being sold by Detlev, with a magnificent mark-up!
In addition to the examples I posted, I believe at least one badge & document, or possibly a badge, document & Wehrpass/Soldbuch showed up on Detlev's site, which he remarked had been the first absolutely attributable example he had found in 17 years!~
Same thing with the Anti Partisan Badge. You'll notice lots of examples on certain dealer sites, while other dealers might have one example every 3-5 years! Compare that with the frequency & cost of a Knight's Cross.
The "sexy" piece commands the premium while people will shy away from that which is truly scarce.

[J.von Canon]

Some more Scharfscheutzen tidbits..

I've been in touch with a number of former Scharfscheutzen for years.
Some of you have probably seen the film "Invisible Weapon"-that wartime training film is still used in at least two military sniper training courses with which I'm familiar.
My friend Herr Artur Becker-Neetz(Ritterkreuztraeger)was the technical producer of "Invisible Weapon":here are some of his quotes from our correspondence going back some 20+ years;
Lieut Der Reserve Becker-Neetz was,among other things,head instructor of a sniper course in Denmark:
(Becker-Neetz,translated from German))-"I was responsible for infantry-educational movies and I made 2 movies with the title "THE INVISIBLE WEAPON",part II=Action.I am still in possession of the scripts.Your last letter made me contact the Bundes Library(movie department)in Koblenz,in order to see if these educational movies have surfaced or were found again.The Allies in West and East at the time confiscated all these movies.Some of them were given to the Bundeswehr for training and educational purposes,as they were established on war experiences."(note:I sent Herr Becker-Neetz a video of his film,which he did not know has been reproduced by an American film company;he tells me it made quite a hit with the members of the Ordensgemeinschaft der Ritterkreuztraeger e.V.,of which he is President.)
In commenting on the wearing of Scharfscheutzen Abzeichen Lieut.Becker-Neetz went on to say "The Soviets shot Sharpshooters who were taken prisoner immediately on the spot when being recognized by the patches they wore.Therefore,the Sharpshooters did not wear these patches."
I have volumous correspondence with a number of former snipers,to include SS General Otto Kumm,DAS REICH & PRINZ EUGEN Regt's.who gave valuable insight about the training,selection,and other data concerning the employment of SS snipers contrasted with the Heer snipers.