These are always nice badges
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Hi Martin,
That's a fine Cupal Assmann; one of my favorite PAB designs!
Not to hijack your thread, just wanted to show an illustration of what Giel means about the two-layer copper "sandwich" on some Cupal PABs, but not on others. One of my bronze Cupal Assmann's apparently never received any finish at all. Both the front and reverse are bare copper, and it's not from the finish wearing off; this badge has very little wear at all. It has both front and back copper layers, with the aluminum in between.
Gest,
GregComment
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The edge of this one, showing the "sandwich."Comment
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Beauty Greg
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Giel, I don't think this is right for two reasons:Originally posted by Giel VW View Post
1. Aluminum doesn't hold finish, it flakes off very easily because it cannot bond to the surface. That is why it has to be anodized (where the finish is ingrained in the aluminum surface). It cannot hold a brennlack or painted-on finish.
2. It would be impossible to solder on a hinge and catch to bare aluminum IMO. If you look at all the other aluminum badges we know of (specifically LW badges), the hinge and/or catch are typically crimped in. On the rare instances where the hinge and catch are not crimped, they were "fused" to the badge. Not soldered. To do this, you essentially had to melt a part of the hinge and a part of the badge so they "fused" together. That is why the hinge and catch had to be made from aluminum as well, because you can only connect aluminum to aluminum. You cannot solder brass to aluminum.
With those two issues, I have to think that there is a very thin layer of copper on the back of Assmann PABs. This layer may be so thin that it "ripped" in places, revealing the inner aluminum layer. This ripping usually happens in high-stress areas like the edge of a badge, exactly like we see on Martin's badge. Here is a good example of this "ripping", seen on the wings of a Cupal Paratrooper badge.
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Beautiful badges all the way around and this is starting to be a very informative thread.
Regards,
Chris G.Comment
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...Giel, Greg, Tom....thanks so much for your input and images, real great.
As Assmann is ....besides Juncker...my fav maker of PAB this all is very interesting for me
Thx
Greetz
MartinComment
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Hi Tom
I never tested it, but it looks like it's just very easy to peel the bronze finish off. Just look how the finish completely goes away up to the naked aluminium, while the faded finish on the front reveals beautiful copper (I've never seen alu pop through the obverse!)
Many of these Assmann PAB set ups are dumpled under in solder (even so worse that many think they are repaired!) which make me think they had some dificulties puting that set up on there. Maybe also interesting is their use of crimping tools on very few of their badges, this proofs that it was not easy to solder on there and that they tried something else as well.
I didn't realise that the copper plate on the reverse (which is more like plating) could be that faint though, but it makes sence if there was one! But if there was one that thin, do you think it's suddenly possible to solder on there?
Maybe it's time to take out all of your PAB's from under the dust now and have a look at these cupal Assmanns! Can anyone ditinguish the copper from the bronze paint on the reverse of their badges?Kind regards,
Giel
Check out our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/Giels-Milit...5292741243193/Comment
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Hi Giel,Originally posted by Giel VW View Post
This is the main point that tells us there is a copper sheet on the reverse. Look how the finish doesn't stick to the aluminum layer on the middle of the badge, yet there is almost 100% finish left on the reverse. If it were bare aluminum, there would be no finish there IMO.
Yes, I think the copper sheet on the back was paper thin. Just enough to hold a finish and hold the soldered hardware on there.
If someone is willing to take a pin to the back of their Cupal Assmann badges and probe around the edges, I think they would find the copper layer and can get get some sheets of it to come off.
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
If someone is willing to take a pin to the back of their Cupal Assmann badges and probe around the edges, I think they would find the copper layer and can get get some sheets of it to come off.
Tom
I have a very worn and de-nazified Cupal Assmann that I only kept because it shows the layer(s) of copper well; let me dig that thing out ...
GregComment
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Hi Guys,Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post
I don't have an answer to the one-sided vs. two-sided Cupal question, but I just wanted to mention that it was possible (although no doubt more difficult) to solder and finish an aluminum surface. The FLL Minesweeper in aluminum is an example of that principle, although these are quite rare so perhaps they weren't worth all the effort?
But despite this being an unworn Minesweeper badge it seems to have retained a lot less of the reverse finish than did Martin's PAB.
Best regards,
---NormComment
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Originally posted by Greg Walden View PostI have a very worn and de-nazified Cupal Assmann that I only kept because it shows the layer(s) of copper well; let me dig that thing out ...
Greg
I didn't have to pick at the finish on the back of this one after all, because the finish is worn enough to see that there is a copper layer underneath on the back. It must be very thin, because when you look at the edges it looks like the copper is only on the front, but it has to be on the back, too.
There's not enough wear on my best silver and bronze ones to see any copper showing through on the back.
Best,
GregComment
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EdgesComment
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I've had 2 Cupal (Juncker) PABs pass through my hands, in the silver grade, obviously having the copper underneath. What was interesting about the two was the different way they aged, as one had virtually all the original finish intact, while the other looked like it had seen a completely different frontline. Anyway, great little read!
--KenLast edited by Panzercracker; 06-12-2013, 06:36 PM.Comment
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Hi guys,
Greg, thanks for taking the time to pull our your PAB and confirming the thin copper layer.
Norm, the obverse of that FLL minesweeper looks anodized, which is what I expect for an aluminum badge (same with the Juncker Heer Para badges in aluminum). Its not really a gold finish, but rather a chemical process where gold color was impregnated into the surface layer of the aluminum as I am sure you well know.
The reverse is interesting, but are you sure we are not looking at a Cupal badge here, where there is a very thin layer of copper on the reverse that has been finished white? The solder patches seem to have green-grundge around the edges, which could indicate the presence of copper. Or maybe there is copper in the solder, but either way I would want to confirm this is not a CUPAL badge.
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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