Announcement

**Larry Lipps** · 04-02-2002, 10:30 AM

Probably about 99% less than are available at any militaria show.

**Ron Birch** · 04-02-2002, 10:50 AM

Good question, you have my interest. Does anybody have any idea? And what about the 75, 50 and 25 for that matter. And while were on the subject what about the numbered GAB?

**Greg** · 04-02-2002, 04:13 PM

I don't have any overall issue figures, but in schwere SS-PanzerAbteilung 501 very few numbered PAB were awarded. This was the Tiger battalion of the 1. SS-PanzerKorps, with its origins in the heavy tank company of the LSSAH, and including such panzer aces and RK winners as Michael Wittmann and his gunner, Balthasar Woll; Helmut Wendorff; Franz Staudegger; and others. Some of these guys had been in panzer battles since 1939. Yet the first numbered PAB were not awarded in this battalion until October 1944, and apparently fewer than 10 were awarded. Wittmann never had one because of course he was dead by then.

Greg

**ianb** · 04-10-2002, 01:57 AM

You can do better!

Come on lads, some one must have an idea!

**Stijn David** · 04-10-2002, 04:29 AM

numbered panzer assault badges

Hello,

Good question here .
I have absolutely no clue howmuch there where awarded but it has to be rather very few => try to find a documented grouping to a recipient ? ( im sure you are going to have a hell of a hard time in finding a original one

+> is tehre anyone the happy owner of a soldbuch or Wehrpass with such entry's ??? )

I have found it alsways strange and have always looked at it with great mistrust if we see al the minty once floating arround ( not making any judgement +> just my observation

)

GReetings,

**Ron Birch** · 04-10-2002, 04:44 AM

I agree Sijn, there are alot floating around. This is jus a thought but would you think there would be more numbered GAB's than PAB's? I really would like some numbers attached to this thread concerning how many times it has been awareded.

**Spanky** · 04-10-2002, 10:26 PM

Consider this

I am not surprised that there are a fair number of mint condition genuine numbered panzer assault badges around (but also a lot of fakes!). In the fall of 1944 the Germans were trying to regroup in the West after suffering heavy losses in France and Belgium. In the East they were being mercilessly pursued across Poland after the total collapse of their defensive front in the USSR. The German units still intact were more concerned with refitting and their immediate survival than awarding the latest badges approved for issue. Also, moving any material to the front was difficult given the total air superiority of the allies on both fronts. So even though the badges were probably being produced in quantity, the difficulty in getting them to the front and the low priority of their issue at this point in the war explains why not many were actually awarded.

**Stijn David** · 04-10-2002, 11:48 PM

Hello ,

I actually do not agree on parts what Spanky does write, it is absolutely correct that the Germans where loosing in all fronts by that time but that is no explanation on why there where not more of these ( rare ) badges awarded.

Lets have another example , the CCC in Gold, it is not until quite late in the war that these where given to the soldiers => the soldiers who earned this award had extreme combatexperience and they could have been used better in combat then they where used in sending them to Hitler ( or Himmler, etc ... ) forrthe receipt of their Spange +> as top of the bill these soldiers where then many times replaced in training units + did get a holliday.
To make my point these awards had a moralising effect and where the Germans not masters in Propaganda ????

THere are other examples out there where awards where bestowed just after the combat lines ( where the Reich was already partial collapsing ) for propaganda purposes , even in the last stages of the war ( remember Hitler awarding EK 2 's to HJ boys ? )

So in your reasoning there is a ground of truth in it ( regarding the state Germany was in 1944 ) but i don not believe this affected the bestowing off awards in this kind of sense +> i believe it is quite simple, there where not that many bestowed, offcoarse it is quite normal that one should get faster a " 25 " numbered badge then a " 50 " , etc ... +> but where is al that documented proof then ?

just my .02 eurocents

**Mike Kenny** · 04-11-2002, 12:24 AM

Hi,

I'm not near my reference books at present but wasn't part of the award criteria to do with the number of ASSAULTS (ie attacks), as differentiated from defensive/rearguard actions? Given that German forces were mainly on the defensive at the time of institution (back-dated qualifying actions aside), this may explain why not that many were issued. I'm sure that some of the "mint" examples seen are indeed genuine and were from over-run stocks (either at the manufacturers or near the front) - you've probably got a better chance of getting one from a US veteran than from a German one!

I don't think the exact number of awarded badges will even be known for any of the numbered assault badges due to the shambles at the end of the war and many documents being destroyed (or being locked away) but I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable Heer collectors could make an educated guess.

Regards
Mike K

**Mark S.** · 04-11-2002, 12:41 AM

If awarded, the badges should have been entered into the soldbuch, whether they actually got the badge or not. Where are all the soldbuchs?

**Spanky** · 04-11-2002, 11:21 PM

I disagree

Stijn,
I do not agree that the documented awarding of Gold Close Combat Clasps late in the war supports the conclusion that numbered panzer badges were awarded with the same priority. Here are my reasons

1) The Close Combat Clasp in all three grades was initiated by Hitler, who felt the award of this badge was necessary to recognize the bravery of infantry unsupported by armor, which was more and more common later in the war (when the Germans had fewer and fewer tanks and little gasoline for them). So not only was a priority placed on awarding the CCC by Hitler, there were more potential candidates as foot soldiers were much more numerous than tank crews late in the war.

2) High bravery awards made personally by Hitler and other top Nazis (e.g. Himmler) late in the war were done for propaganda and moral boosting. Everyone has seen late war photos of Hitler awarding Knights Crosses, Oak leaves and Gold Close Combat Clasps in this manner. Awarding EK2s to the Hitler Youth in Berlin was a publicity stunt for Hitler’s birthday in April 1945, not something he did regularly (if ever). Have you ever seen a picture of Hitler awarding a numbered panzer badge? I have not. I am left to conclude that the awarding of numbered panzer badges was left to the field commanders, who had better things to do.

3) Finally, the three grades of the CCC were initiated in November 1942. The numbered panzer badges were initiated after June 1943. So there was more opportunity to award the CCC before the situation became dire at the front, especially in the East where the Germans were in more or less steady retreat and defeat after the battle of Kursk in July 1943.

I think it would be more appropriate to compare the numbered panzer badges to the numbered general assault badges (which are also rarely documented in a Soldbuch). I have a Soldbuch, document and medal group for a panzer pioneer Oberfeldwebl that was awarded the EK2, EK1, DKG, tank destruction strip and bronze CCC and other awards between 1940 and the end of the war. The close combat dates and locations for the CCC are carefully documented from June 1941 to late 1944, 17 dates and locations on the eastern front in all. He won the EK2 in May 1940 so he actually had a few more assaults under his belt during the western campaign. Did he just come up short of receiving a “25” marked general assault badge or was it not as high a priority to substantiate him for this badge?

**Stijn David** · 04-12-2002, 01:31 AM

numbered assault badges

Hello,

Fine, offcoarse each has his own opinion regarding this matter

On the other hand think of it clear please, it is no so highly likable that a panzer crew ( or the other persons entitled to receive one of the numbered badges ) receives these numbered awards => one has to be extremely lucky survive these criteria ( it is not so normal as most people may even think to survive 25 ( for example ) panzer assaults ) to be entitled to have such a badge .+> and again where is the documented proof for these badges ?

I myself have never seen a picture of Hitler awarding the numbered badges ( and i highly doubt if we ever wil see such a picture ) but that doesnt mean anything => i agree that field commanders hade better things to do but where these field commanders even aware of the existance of these badges ? +> if yes howmany of theire good soldiers would be entiteled to own such a badge ? ( regarding the close combat bar +> the gold class , it is not until late 1943 early 1944 (and instituted somwhere 1941 => do not have my references either at hand so can not give exact dates ) that the first award was made , and if you know M.Dorr's excellent book " Die Träger der Nahkampfspange im Gold " there are shown numerous copy's of official documents that the German's highly overestimated the number of Gold combat clasps !!!!!!! +> so this is also a very rare award ( but has indeed nothing to do with the numbered awards and was mayby a bad comparison from my side ),on the other side it is also possible that the germans on their hand also highly overestimated the number of these numbered badges +> is that the reason why these are floating around ? ( originals offcoarse !!!! )

There exist pictures of soldiers of who wear these badges but these must be seen as rarity's not the rule !!!! and it is my opinion that we probably never know the number of these awarded.

Greetings,

**Jürg** · 04-13-2002, 06:57 AM

numbered assault badges

hi there

I have a copy of a wehrpass beloning to a knight cross holder which includes a entry of a numbered assault badge. His name is Dr. Eberhard Zahn who fought in the Afrikakorps as well as in Italy.

Juerg

**Spanky** · 04-13-2002, 11:25 AM

Agreement

Stijn,
I think we are in general agreement that very few soldiers were eligible for the numbered general and panzer assault awards, even the 25 and 50 assault levels. My Panzer Pioneer grouping is a good example of a highly decorated veteran that probably fell short of even the 25 general assault badge even though he was highly decorated and in combat from 1940 until 1945. The main point I was trying to make is that more soldiers probably qualified for these badges than actually ever received them due to the administrative overhead of compiling the dates and locations of the assaults necessary to qualify. The staff officers and NCOs simply had much more pressing matters to attend to. This overhead was taken on more frequently in the case of the Close Combat Clasp award because this was an award instituted and promoted by Hitler. The numbered badges do not appear to have had this priority placed on awarding them.

At least for the 25 and 50 awards, I believe good to mint condition un-awarded originals will be encountered in addition to a lot of fakes, since I believe the badges could have been awarded more than they were. Original 75 assault and higher grades should be very scarce with hundreds of fakes for every real one still around.
Spanky

Announcement

Panzer Assault badge question?

Panzer Assault badge question?

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread