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**Nordmark** · 10-20-2009, 12:26 PM

Neither grund dug, nor original...

Daniel

**stewy** · 10-20-2009, 12:26 PM

Hi there the catch is odd for an Assmann,badge looks very pitted,almost ground dug. But the pin's new looking

. Stewy

**Blued** · 10-20-2009, 09:00 PM

I don't like the base metal look or the pitting. I'd pass

**dc9** · 10-21-2009, 01:42 AM

Well Marisca,

If your piece is a fake then mine is too. This one has been in my collection for quite a bit and has the same exact mold cavity characteristics (flaws) on the reverse that yours has. Mine retains a painted/silver wash finish, has a magnetic pin (plus, can see some oxidation transferred to the surface of the finish) and was either hand vaulted or simply bent, over the years. Can't remember the source of mine, but, it was definitely in the U.S.

Is there any finish present on your piece? (The lustre in the photos makes it appear to have been polished.)

I believe that both our pieces are an exact match to the example shown on page 123 of German Combat Badges of the Third Reich Vol.1. All three are from the same mold cavity and show the identical characteristics, like the ones noted in my picture below.

Either all three are fakes, or they are not. If the one in the book is good, then I firmly believe mine is good. (I don't think there is a reference book out there that hasn't had one bad one slip by and get published.)

Eric

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Slide1.JPG (70.6 KB, 174 views)

**dc9** · 10-21-2009, 01:42 AM

.

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Slide2.JPG (47.2 KB, 174 views)

**dc9** · 10-21-2009, 01:44 AM

Characteristics

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Slide3.JPG (82.1 KB, 173 views)

**Don D.** · 10-21-2009, 04:32 AM

Since these are supposed to be die cast in a metal die under high pressure I don't understand how these "cavity charactoristics" are supposed to occur.

**Nordmark** · 10-21-2009, 08:33 AM

Must have been melting hot, when leaving the mold...

Attached Files

IMGP1195.jpg (64.7 KB, 163 views)

**Thomas Durante** · 10-21-2009, 09:31 AM

Hi guys,

Those cavities are not die characteristics, but rather problems that were on the original Assmann badge that was used to make all these fakes. I think we are looking at 2 Staegemeir fakes. The characteristics Eric is pointing to are the exact same as on Marisca's badge, and are much different than normal die characteristics. Infact, EVERYTHING nook and cavity is the exact same on both badges, clearly both Staegemeir products IMO.

Further proof of this is how the catch is cut out. Notice the same notch inside the vertical arm of the catch, shows up on both examples! This is inconsistent with original Assmann #2 GABs IMO.

Tom

**Thomas Durante** · 10-21-2009, 09:32 AM

c

Attached Files

Slide2.JPG (48.8 KB, 156 views)

**Don D.** · 10-21-2009, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Hi guys,

Those cavities are not die characteristics, but rather problems that were on the original Assmann badge that was used to make all these fakes. I think we are looking at 2 Staegemeir fakes. The characteristics Eric is pointing to are the exact same as on Marisca's badge, and are much different than normal die characteristics. Infact, EVERYTHING nook and cavity is the exact same on both badges, clearly both Staegemeir products IMO.

Further proof of this is how the catch is cut out. Notice the same notch inside the vertical arm of the catch, shows up on both examples! This is inconsistent with original Assmann #2 GABs IMO.

Tom

That is what I was alluding to.

**kray** · 10-21-2009, 11:16 AM

I agree
both shown examples are fake

**dc9** · 10-21-2009, 11:41 AM

dc9: Either all three are fakes, or they are not.

I want to make it clear that I am not defending one minor badge in my collection; I am just trying to present factual information that can help us determine the legitimacy of the pieces presented. I don't know the history of Staegemeir, and like I said these may be fakes, but my experience in the injection molding business tells me that someone has either used a high pressure die casting process to make these "fakes" or simulated the look of an injection molded piece very, very nicely (too nicely, not likely).

Thomas Durante: rather problems that were on the original Assmann badge that was used to make all these fakes.

I would like to examine an "original" mold cavity #2 Assmann badge that was manufactured via high pressure die casting - can someone please post pictures? Or, have I missed the point: is the assumption here that someone took a legitimate Assmann piece, manufactured by some other process, and faked them using high pressure die casting?

The die casting process to make these pieces involves a two piece mold (or more depending on how they accomodated the hinge and catch - I will talk about this later) that is clamped together under pressure then molten metal is injected into each of the (4, presumably with this piece) cavities. As the molten metal enters the sealed cavity, the air trapped in that cavity has to be evacuated through vents at the edges (parting line) of where the mold comes together. A number of things could cause these characteristics on the reverse of the piece, here are a few: 1) the reverse half of the mold could have purposely remained in a "rough" state - it costs labor and money to polish a mold to a mirror finish, when nobody is going to see the reverse of the badge anyway, 2) the vents in the areas of the "characteristics" I identified may have been insufficient to evacuate the air fast enough in front of the advancing front of molten metal - this trapped air forms a pocket resisting the advance of the metal creating a hollow or pock mark in the final piece, 3) as the molten metal enters the mold it is rapidly cooling - filling intricate features in the mold with metal that is already crystallizing (hardening) becomes difficult - this is why features on an obverse can look incomplete or soft and why on a large flat surface like the reverse there is "pockmarking" - the problem also occurs with insufficient injection pressures, though this problem usually leads to short shots (portion of the cavity not filling).

I found this quick video on youtube which give a good animation of the process: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6VgC...om=PL&index=90

In the last stages of the video you will see the ejector pins ejecting the part from the cavity. The 6 "pads" on the reverse of these GABs are the tops of the ejector pins recessed into the mold. The pieces have to cool to a point where the part can be ejected without causing deforming (they have to have hardened.) The mechanical action of the mold opening causes the ejection pins to push the pieces out of their cavities.

One can also see evidence of the "gate" (entry point for the molten metal into the cavity) located on the outer circumference at the hinge block.

Regarding the creation of the catch: there is evidence on the badge of the use of a "side action" in the mold to create the undercut in the catch. A manufacturer has a couple choices here: they could either mold the piece with a simple, lower cost 2-part mold and create a simple "block" for the catch, then have somone machine out the undercut to accept the pin (labor intensive). Or they could build a slightly more expensive mold with a sliding side action that enables the undercut to be created during the molding process. (This 3rd part of the mold is "in place" when the mold is clamped together, then it "slides" out of the way mechanically when the mold is opened allowing the part to be freely ejected.)

I am convinced that these pieces were manufactured by a high pressure die casting process. I don't know whether they are fake or not, but, someone went through a lot of expense to build a mold to churn out low margin "fakes."

Eric

**dc9** · 10-21-2009, 11:42 AM

.

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General Assault marked Assman, Autentic or copy?

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