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    #31
    Hi Frank,
    Thanks for your comment. I have this badge for about a year,
    but I never have thought that is Aluminum made.

    Best Regards,
    Sihong

    Comment

      #32
      I think we can agree that the badge is not "aluminum". I also think that we are getting closer with "Cupal", although not in the same sense as previous definitions have been of a predominantly aluminum badge "sandwiched" between copper layers.

      See the attached thread on Philippe's solid back PAB in Cupal that weighs 18 grams. You can probably figure that a stamped hollow-back has, conservatively, about 1/3 the material that is used in a solid-back. So, if it were truly "Cupal" with the same material composition, it should weigh much less than the 11.5 grams as cited by Sihong and Anthony in their badges. I would guess these badges have a higher content of copper and might be tombak or brass alloys with a good percentage of aluminum that explains the lighter weight.

      http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=cupal
      Last edited by Lorenzo Brown; 12-04-2003, 02:48 AM.
      Visit my Badge Collection: http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.html

      Comment

        #33
        Sorry but have to disagree with you here Lorenzo.
        On the first pic shown by Jan you can clearly see that the core of aluminum is underneath a layer of copper. Making this, IMO, a true Cupal badge.
        Maybe this was the experimental stage before they added an extra layer of copper underneath, so creating the "sandwich" type.
        Lorenzo, what makes you assume that the badge should be much lighter than 11,5grms?

        Skip
        Last edited by skip; 12-04-2003, 03:42 AM.
        LOOKING FOR ALL ITEMS CONNECTED TO HERBERT SCHOB.

        Comment

          #34
          Hi Guys !
          Is we incl. me ???? Please read post 18 .

          [QUOTE=Lorenzo Brown]I think we can agree that the badge is not "aluminum".

          Jan Arne

          Comment

            #35
            Hi Jan,

            Based up on the picture you posted in post "23" for me this is a classic cupal construction. Red copper on top and an aluminium layer underneath. Really an amazing find and nice to know that another manufacturer besides the unknown "Porsche PAB" maker used such a technique. Still wondering why they went to all the trouble.

            With 11,2 grams your PAB is about 38% lighter than my 3 layered cupal PAB which seems perfectly acceptable to me.

            @Sihong, could you verify if your PAB also uses the same two layer construction as shown by Jan please. Based upon the picture you posted it looks more like a normal Buntmetall Assman because the base metall, at least from your pictures, looks more yellow than red. The weight on the other hand is spot on. Thanks in advance.

            KR
            Philippe

            Comment

              #36
              I thought all cupal badges were massives. Did I get that right?
              Best, Sal

              Comment

                #37
                Hi Sal,,

                Since they consist out of different layers I don't think we really can say they are massive. However to these hollow stamped cupal PAB's are new to me too and before Anthony and Jan posted theirs I didn't even now they existed. This is what keeps our hobby interesting I guess always something new to discover.

                I have in my collection one other Cupal badge, a 4 year RAD medal. On this medal your can't see that it consists of different layers and I often wondered what the inside of the badge woud look like. Would it be possible to peel of the other copper layer and would you find aluminium in side? I really would love to find a damaged one just to be sure.

                KR
                Philippe

                Comment

                  #38
                  Hi Guys !
                  Skip and Phillippe ! Thanks for inputs and comments !
                  I think ( just my opinion ) that most of ous that have posted in this thread can agree / or beleive that this badge ( showed by me and Anthony , and talked about by Sergey ) are made of aluminium with copper coating , an so called "cupal" badge , or variant of the "standard" "cupal" badge .

                  Jan Arne

                  Comment

                    #39
                    For me also a first to see a hollow cupal badge. I also went under the assumption that all cupal badge were solid, the 2 examples posted here are certainly very unusual and rare.

                    Skip
                    LOOKING FOR ALL ITEMS CONNECTED TO HERBERT SCHOB.

                    Comment

                      #40
                      Hi Guys,

                      I think that Philippe has come up with the most logical answer, Cupal and Aluminium together, so we can call it either.

                      This is a DIE struck badge so whatever it is would have to be in sheet form to be stamped from the die, I am still not clear on how this would be done.

                      Any ideas on this? Was an Aluminium sheet covered in Cupal for the strength and then the badge stamped?

                      Regards,

                      Anthony

                      Comment

                        #41
                        [QUOTE=Anthony]"Hi Guys,

                        I think that Philippe has come up with the most logical answer, Cupal and Aluminium together, so we can call it either...."


                        Hi Anthony. You shouldn't interchange the terms at random and call them "either". Just as you correctly acknowledged in post #13, there is a distinct difference between Aluminum and Cupal...."The badge was sold to me as an Aluminium ...it is also not Cupal...".

                        Best to call them what they are: either "Cupal", or tombak with a high content of aluminum or other lightweight material! Sorry to be picky about this, but "Aluminum" and "Cupal" are different IMO.
                        Last edited by Lorenzo Brown; 12-06-2003, 06:16 AM.
                        Visit my Badge Collection: http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.html

                        Comment

                          #42
                          OK OK OK.


                          CUPAL CUPAL CUPAL. The value has now gone up because it is "CUPAL"

                          I have seen one solid Aluminium badge, it was a Zimmermann and a Bronze one, but unfortunately I have lost the pic somewhere, if I find it I will post it.

                          So we now have three types of ASSMANN PAB

                          1 Tombac hollow back
                          2 Zink hollow back
                          3 Cupal hollow back

                          All agree?

                          Regards,

                          Anthony

                          Comment

                            #43
                            [QUOTE=Lorenzo Brown]
                            Originally posted by Anthony
                            "Hi Guys,

                            I think that Philippe has come up with the most logical answer, Cupal and Aluminium together, so we can call it either...."
                            Originally posted by Anthony


                            Hi Anthony. You shouldn't interchange the terms at random and call them "either". Just as you correctly acknowledged in post #13, there is a distinct difference between Aluminum and Cupal...."The badge was sold to me as an Aluminium ...it is also not Cupal...".

                            Best to call them what they are: either "Cupal", or tombak with a high content of aluminum or other lightweight material! Sorry to be picky about this, but "Aluminum" and "Cupal" are different IMO.
                            I agree! KupAl is a term used to designate a material layered with copper (kupfer) and aluminum. Aluminum is notoriously difficult to color or add a finish to. Copper is an excellent material for finishing with metallic coatings. Hence the mechanical binding of copper to an aluminum core. The aluminum is strong (and light weight), the copper is malleable (soft) and takes a good finish.

                            Aluminum badges are anodized, which is (or was) the only method of permanently finishing them. Because aluminum was comparively rare and expensive--both as material and to work, requiring very high temperatures to melt. They are uncommon.

                            Neil

                            Comment

                              #44
                              Hi all I send the photos of my Assman aluminium(cupal) badge.
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                                #45
                                backside
                                Attached Files

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