Assmann PAB

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi John. Yours appears to be soldered in. Are you saying that yours are crimped?

[John T]

Hi John. Yours appears to be soldered in. Are you saying that yours are crimped?

Hi Lorenzo, you are correct my hinge and catch are soldered on, I feel the piece to be stamped but am not sure as the guage of metal used to stamp the piece from is somewhat thicker than I have seen on stamped IABs for example.

Is there any way to evaluate if the piece is stamped or cast, as I am puzzled by the piece?

John

[Lorenzo Brown]

Ok..I'm going to jump out here and say that it is IMPOSSIBLE, if not ridiculously irrational, to STAMP a crimping flap into a "stamped" badge.

Please explain how, or why, this could be done??

[anguspm]

Lorenzo you are quite correct that it makes absolutely no sense to stamp a crimp into a stamped badge.

BUT: I believe the first badge is cast (see earlier reasoning) and was cast with the leaves facing upwards which are then bent down to crimp the hinge plate. That makes perfect sense.

John's badge is different in that it appears stamped, albeit with more material than usual, and therefore the solder attachment is again making sense. What I would say is that these two badges are not the same in their construction method cast vs stamped and therefore we are not comparing like with like.

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi Angus...Actually, you and I are in agreement here. It is IMPOSSIBLE to stamp in the crimps.

BUT...IF it is cast...then my prior observation still holds true. LOOK at the plates on the hinge and catch. IF cast, THEN it doesn't need the additional "flaps" to hold them in....solder will work. And those "flaps" appear "soldered-in". As I said..."Unnecessary additional work".

ALSO...look at the "crimps"...they appear sloppy and soldered in. The "waves" are on the "diagonal"?

On second look ...I think this is either a repair at BEST....or a FAKE at worst.

[John T]

I agree that it is impossible to stamp in crimps over a hinge and a catch..but when the piece is originally stamped, is it not possible that an extra area of metal is left by the hinge and catch area....and that this extra area of metal is then crimped over the hinge and catch assembly after the piece is stamped.

John

[anguspm]

Sorry Lorenzo I got a little confused in that the leaves holding the hinge plate look to be soldered on but the catch I couldn't tell if they were part of an integral casting.

I agree that the way the attachment has been set up is time consuming. Now whilst this makes sense in that it takes longer to cast a badge than to stamp one (therfore it could be a higher quality piece) the detail on the obverse whilst "there" doesn't have the same clarity that one would expect from a high quality piece with so much time invested in it already.

My logic tells me that I am unsure and this piece presents more questions than it solves. Without saying its good or bad my own choice has always been that if not 100% sure return it. Ok I've let good badges go but its also saved me along the way.

[anguspm]

John,

Quick answer: Whilst you're correct in what you say it is only possible if the bent over metal forming the leave starts at the badges edge. eg an envelope. Thats what had me confused as the catch leave seems to start at the badge edge. However at the hinge it clearly does not (it would have to be behind the eagles head to work in this case).

[Raymond]

Thanks everyone for your opinions.The crimps are not soldered on,they are a part of the badge.Could this badge be cast or die forged?Would a faker go thru the trouble and make a hinge and catch attachment unseen before?
Ray

[anguspm]

Hi Raymond,

The confusion seems to come from the pics but as you've now confirmed the leaves are cast and not soldered it makes sense. Far quicker to bend the leaves to hold the catch and hinge than soldering.

Questions are.....

a) Why put the features on the reverse of a casting?
b) Why cast the badge (longer than stamping) when the detail at the end is poorer?

Regretably I leave you no closer to a definitive answer but maybe someone knows a bit more?

[John T]

I believe that is may be possible to cast a piece from dies that originally were made for stamping a piece. The reason for this is that by stamping the dies get worn down much quicker than they would if the dies were used for casting. So, is it not possible that dies were originally made to stamp a piece, then after time, due to the costs involved of making new dies by hand, the manufacturer of a particular piece would have decided to make said dies last longer and use them for casting a piece, rather than stamping the piece. I read this somewhere a long time ago, but do not recall where. What do you guys think?

John

[Lorenzo Brown]

Hi Raymond,
Questions are.....

a) Why put the features on the reverse of a casting?
b) Why cast the badge (longer than stamping) when the detail at the end is poorer?

@Angus. Excellent questions that can only leave us to wonder.

Hi Raymond...Since you are the only person that has this badge it hand, I will trust your judgement that the "crimping flaps" are cast into the badge.
However, from your pictures they appear to me to be soldered on. Note that there is a distinct line of demarkation where the body of the badge meets the flap....where the dark "oxidation" stops.,,,suggesting to me that the flap is a separate piece of material. Perhaps better pictures would help.

[skip]

Wow, freaky badge and a first for me also.
Does´nt appear to be totally hollow more half hollow (halb hohl).
The front details sure seem to fit for an Assmann although I would like to see a nice sharp pic. from straight on (like Johns), that way we can maybe get a better idea of the obverse detailing.
I´m not to keen to say good or bad at this moment, I think we have to look at this one a bit more closely.

Skip

[Philippe DB]

Hi Guys,

If this badge would have been made from the thin sheet metal from which "normal" Assmann PAB's were made I would immediately think in the direction of a repair.

However this badge is made out of a much thicker metall as normaly encountered and difficult to tell if stamped or cast. Based upon what I can see I tend towards original but experimental, not only in the use of material but also in it's reverse setup. If it was experimental I think we should be able to at least find a second one with the exact same features.

Anyway, very interesting PAB.

KR
Philippe

[Raymond]

I guess alot of confusion stems from my poor photograghic skills .The hinge and catch plates are definitely cast as part of the badge.I'll try a few more photos.
Ray