Unusual reverse fitting on PAB opinions please

[John T]

Hello fellows:

This PAB has an unusual reverse hinge assembly...I have seen this before, I think on an IAB but I am not certain. The cross pin is held in place by a sheet of brass that is then crimped into the badge...the reverse pock marks would indicate to me that this is a cast piece. I have heard the term die forged (cast) used refering to some authentic pieces, but do not know what to make of this one. The piece is concave. Any opinions as to if this piece is good or bogus would be appreciated, thanks

John

[John T]

reverse

reverse

[John T]

close up

hinge

[John T]

another close up

another close-up

[John T]

catch

the catch is cast into the piece..somewhat sloppily which would lead me to believe it is late war or post war, John

[Mark S.]

Hi John

It looks like an Aurich hinge without the round crimp area..sort of.

I am bothered more by the mess on the swastika. Double strike? Drop shadow? Whats going on there, anyway? And whats up with the bald spot in the grass..?

Dont get sucked in by the concave design, I have kicked a few to the curb with this feature.

The reverse looks like cooling cracks from a lost wax casting to me. Interesting, but I have serious doubts.

[John T]

Hi Mark, you have some very good points...it just puzzles me that the fakers would go through all the steps to make such a reverse assembly, I would think they would use an easier set-up, not something that looks like something that may have been experimented with back during the war...I believe that the piece I recall seeing was an IAB that was very light, seemed almost to be aluminum weight, but I am not sure...it had the same type of hinge, but I do not know where that piece is, the pock mark features on the reverse bother me also, John

[Philippe DB]

Hi John,

I'm not to keen on this badge. IMO it's a copy based on a late SC Zimmerman. On this Pab the oval hinge plate was also used in combination with different types of catches. Look at this thread for more info on this.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=28859

General layout is quit acurate but this badge really lacks the quality and sharpness of an original SC Zimmerman.

KR
Philippe

[hcliffe]

Just realized I have the bronze twin of this badge! And as you can see by the pics, I bought it from a reliable source.

[Philippe DB]

Hi Harry,

Yep looks the same as posted by John. Do you have better pics or scans you could post of it so the eagle would be more visible.

Harry do you own an other sc Zimmermann with which you could compare this one and let us know if in your opinion the design is a perfect match to this maker.

Still don't like this badge and don't find it acceptable that these could be late war versions. On all the sc Zimmermann's we see the use of catch plates in different forms so it just wouldn't make any sence for this company to all of a sudden start using a completly different reverse setup technique requiring a new set of tools. Certainly not because this crimping technique is more time consuming and more expensive than the one they used before.

Only other option would be that these are not made by Zimmerman but thats difficult to judge from pictures only and thats why I asked if you can compare it to such a badge.

On the possitive side, the obverse looks razor sharp on Detlev pics and that certainly a good point.

KR
Philippe

[John T]

Hi Harry:

Thank you for those amazing pictures. They seem to match my piece exactly...the only difference I see is one, well two actually. Your piece has bronze finish remains and the way they did your catch was it seems your catch is on a plate that is attached onto the badge, ie a "C" catch whereas my catch is the "?" type catch where it looks like a question mark, a backwards one, coming out of the badge, ie the base of the catch is cast into the badge itself.

I theorize that if the pieces are good the reason for the differences in catches is that the maker was experimenting with new production techniques...even late in the war...for example look at the Assmann injection molded paratrooper badges and how they were experimenting with new production techniques well into the war.

What do you guys think?

John

[hcliffe]

Philippe,
I do not have better images on hand; will try to scan the badge when I can. Using an old scanner and do not have a digital camera with a macro lens, so new pics may not be much better. I can say that I think the badge looks better in person than these scans.

Also, I do not have another SC Zimmerman to compare it to. Send me yours and I will compare them over the course of the next few years

These 2 badges have the exact same grass area. Does it compare to other PAB manufacturers? Seems unique to me. If so, could be yet another maker we have not identified.

[Philippe DB]

Hi Harry,

I'll send you an e-mail with the scans you need to compare both badges.

KR
Philippe

[John T]

Now that two of these badges have surfaced, we have two possibilities....

1. These are some new fakes that we will soon be seing more of.

2. These are scarce variants that are correct..perhaps made on a very limited basis, either because the reverse mechanism did not hold up well or because the war came to an end before more could be made.

John

[Frank Heukemes]

I have handled one of those and liked it, the obverse is 100% the same as the so called Zimmermann. Unless these aren´t sold by my usual suspects that I keep watching at shows in Germany mainly (and up to now these are not sold by them), I´d like to think of these as period badges.

Cheers, Frank