Here is a scan of mine although it is not much better.
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HC -
Close up of the eagle and swaz. Notice the extra metal in the lower right gap of the swaz. Mistrike or die flaw perhaps? Also, there is some problem with the eagles chest. Both of these flaws were pointed out by Mark earlier and seem to be present on both my badge and John's.HCComment
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Hi Harry,
As prommised I'm going to send you some more scans of details this evening because I really would like us to reach a consensus on these PAB's.
Based upon your detailed scan of the eagle it's absolutely clear that this is the sc Zimmermann eagle but were do we place this badge?
Why is the detailing to the eagles feathers so bad if you compare it even to what we think are late ware Zimmermanns with uncommon setups?
Why is the detailing on the rock area completely gone?
Is it acceptable that these just were verry verry late war badges for which Zimmerman even replaced there tools to produce the reverse setup?
Is this just another case of designer sharing and are these badges produced by another company?
If this is the case why wasn't the designer capable of doing a good job like he did for Zimmermann?
I really would like to believe that this badge is ok but not without finding acceptable explanations for the questions I still have.
KR
Philippe
PS Are there any more of these PAB's arround?Comment
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close up of my eagle...of the first badge posted on the thread,
JohnComment
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close up of the grassy area,
JohnComment
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A few comments regarding my badge and Johns.
1) My badge seems to be made of tombak or buntmetal. It is definitely not zinc.
2) The detail on my badge is exquisite. Better than any PAB I have. No wear points except for a few places of oxidation.
3) The eagle's head on mine is outstanding. Great detail.
4) You may be able to tell from John's picture of the wheels; there is actually another set of road wheels behind the ones with the axle. These are smaller wheels without an axle. These are very finely detailed on my badge.
5) The extra material between the lower right arms of the swaz is very noticeable on mine. I think it is there on John's, but not as noticeable.
6) The problem with the eagles chest is obvious on mine, not as obvious (if there at all) on John's.
7) The back of my badge is puzzling to me. Appears to be stamped based on the extra metal hanging from a few places on the edges. But why are there pock marks then?
8) Regarding the grass area, I would not say it is any more bare than the SC Zimmerman's. If anything, I can see more blotches of grass etc. around the "rock" than on the SC Zimmerman's.
9) I have run this badge past Mike Pinkus, and he is not convinced one way or the other. He does not particularly like the hinge set up.
10) Frank and Detlev like the badge.HCComment
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Hi Harry and John,
I'll post two comparisons using the detailed pictures John just posted, with next to it my silver sc Zimmermann.
I have to admit that only based upon the picture I can't reach a concluson that satisfies me. So maybe one day I'll have to opportunity to hold such a badge and compare it to others and maybe than we can start a new thread.
KR
PhilippeComment
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EagleComment
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Hi Guys,
Since I was the one having doubts about the badges posted by John and Harry I'm happy to be able to conclude this thread with some positive conclusions.
To weeks ago I found a badge that had the exact same obverse features as the badges posted in this thread and almost used an identical crimping technique. I didn't hessitate for a second to buy it because for me that was the only way to find peace of mind with it.
It arrived today and as far as i'm concerned I'm 100% sure about it's authenticity, and 99% sure that these badges were the last production runs of the so called Zimmermann PAB's.
The' obverse detailing with the exception of the rock is still superb and in line with the quality found on earlier badges. The main differences besides the reverse setup are the material and weight of these late war PAB's and the poor quality of the finish. In fact the badge I'm going to post now only weighs 24 grams compared to 34 grams for the earliest example
At first I thought it was a silver version with some dirt on it but upon closer inspection it became clear that this was original a bronze example. Whats left of the bronze looks more like red wine staines and for me is definitive proof of the very poor quality of the late war original finish.
So I suppose that this PAB is just one more variant to ad to a very long list of PAB's we think might have been made by Zimmermann. However the more I think about it the less likely it seems that these were made by Zimmermann. This conclusion is mainly based upon the simmilarities between the classic SC Zimmermann with oval catch plate and Juncker like hinge and the marked Zimmerann IAB's.
By now I already discoverd 9 different setups on these PAB and 8 of them I have never encountered on any marked Zimmermann badges.
KR
PhilippeComment
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ReverseComment
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And finaly this little SC Zimmermann Family pic
With;
Top left : earliest version with round catch plate
Top Right: The badge posted above
Bottom row the classic badges with oval catch platesComment
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hi Philippe:
Very nice badge! I noted some similarities in the badges posted. They all have two small pieces of grass coming out from the top of the right part of the rock (dirt mound?) under the tank. I compared an Assmann and a RK that I had handy and neither had this features. This would lead me to conclude that these are from the same company, or the die was made by the same maker, or even that some are the same die.
Very nice grouping,
JohnComment
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Hi John,
Very good observation. This is a very specific feature that I noticed along time ago. There is one other known PAB that shares this feature, namely the marked and unmarked FLL badges but these have completely different grass and rock areas, tanks and eagles. So for sure not FLL
But here is the catch there are a couple of badges that share that "signature" share the same tanks and share very very similar eagles. Do you or anybody else know which PAB's I'm talking about?
KR
PhilippeComment
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Phlippe,
Great work here in identifying variants of this badge. The hinge on yours is quite a bit different, yet the front looks spot on. Appreciate you coming back to us on this one!HCComment
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Hi Harry,
No problem I really hate threads that generate more questions than they answer
KR
PhilippeComment
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