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**Philippe DB** · 10-02-2003, 02:00 PM

Sorry Lorenzo but I think this is getting to complicated for you.

I don't have an L14 that is stamped L/21

I have an unmarked IAB in my collection and the first Flak badge I posted in this thread both with identical reverse setup. And I have that identical setup on an IAB with maker mark L/21. I realy don't understand what is so difficult to understand here.

Since you seem to be the most logical person arround this thread is in perfect hands and I'll content myself with watching it from the side line from now on.

KR
Philippe

**Lorenzo Brown** · 10-02-2003, 02:15 PM

NO...I think you should continue on THIS thread regarding the WH Wien badge.
Yes...I am getting confused on your reasonings for "concluding" that the badge is an F&B. I think your "conclusions" thus far are based on rather "thin" evidence.

It is a statistical probability that..

If you put 1,000 monkeys in a room and gave them each a pad of paper and a supply of pencils...

THEN left them in there for a year to draw and scribble on the paper...

AND at the end of one year you collected all of the paper, you would probably find at least one piece of paper that had on it what might appear to be a word, or even a sentence.

FROM THAT....somebody would cry "Here's PROOF that monkeys can write!!!"

I am only suggestng that PROOF be better substantiated.

**Lorenzo Brown** · 10-02-2003, 05:06 PM

OK, will try to get back on topic.

Going back to Philippe's statement: "If we relate this to the Flak badge than IMO this F&B obverse design isn't unique and most probably was shared by other makers too. So why not by WH. I know the badge you just posted and I'm not certain if it is ok because on the back it's also marked "Wien" but IMO detailing on this one is a lot better than on David's badge which for me makes it easier to belief that it could be an original even with the Wien mark."

For the sake of avoiding argument, let's stipulate for this point only that the unmarked flak badge may have been made by F&B. More importantly, you agree that the "Wien" marked badge could be an original, using the same obverse design as the unmarked (or F&B) badge.

So, if I interpret this correctly, you are saying that it IS possible that the "WH Wien" marked badge is original.

Any other opinions or comments from anybody?

**skip** · 10-02-2003, 06:33 PM

I can only echo what I said before.

The badge does not show the sort of hardwear setup that I would expect to see on a WH badge.

It does not show sufficient detailing for me to conclude that it is period manufacture.

The MM is not like any other WH MM on other badges.

There are known fakes of the WH Army Flak marked in this way.

The Army Flak Badge is very rare and exceedingly often copied.

The material that it is made from is suspicious looking.

Those are enough reasons for me to avoid this badge and refer to it as none period manufacture.

I had no problems following Phillipes line of thought, and I am suprised that you did!
Lorenzo, I really do not understand that you are fighting so hard for this.
Let me ask you an out and out question.

You are a variant collector. You do not have a WH Army Flak in you extensive, and very nice collection.

Would you buy it?

Skip

**Lorenzo Brown** · 10-02-2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by skip

I had no problems following Phillipes line of thought, and I am suprised that you did!

Perhaps I am just a slow learner, but I didn't follow his logic. However, I think that point is MOOT since I have stipulated his argument to move the discussion along.

Lorenzo, I really do not understand that you are fighting so hard for this.

Fighting for WHAT? I have made NO assertion that the badge is either "real" or "fake"! Read the thread again, please! I am trying to open up this discussion. Note that an opening statement "...on original WH's you never will see "Wien" following the MM.", has now been softened consideraby to "...it could be an original even with the Wien mark."

I think this is progress toward finding the truth about this badge.

Also, please read my intitial comments..."I have "no dog in this fight" as I do not own a "WH Wien" Flak badge. However, this badge has long interested me since "WH Wien" marked Flak badges have long been purported to be fakes on this Forum. "

Let me ask you an out and out question. You are a variant collector. You do not have a WH Army Flak in you extensive, and very nice collection.

Would you buy it?

What I would buy is irrelevant. More important is that this badge be scrutinized on its own merit rather than on long-term beliefs that it is "fake" without ever being analyzed. I have NEVER SEEN a thread on this Forum that has thoroughly analyzed this badge. Seems that SOMEBODY said it was fake and everybody followed suit. I think now we have an opportunity to learn about this badge and draw our own conclusions.

Skip

**Lorenzo Brown** · 10-02-2003, 08:11 PM

P.S...The "SOMEBODY" I referred to in the previous post has been quoted in this thread as saying that "...the badge appears original and is unlike the flat W.H. fake Flak badges made 15 years ago."

Perhaps that "SOMEBODY" could enter into this discussion and present his viewpoints?

Gailen, too, should feel free to enter the discussion to present his arguments.

**Don D.** · 10-03-2003, 12:06 AM

Wheww!!! I've been travelling for two days and didn't expect to find a storm of controversy on a thread I started. Having said that let me make some observations. I posted this badge because I have complete trust in Gailen because he stands behind his product. His word is his bond. That is a rare thing these days. I am offended by the Dealer God comments- perhaps we could substitue Moderater God in their stead. Whencollectors post to a forum they are trying to learn from people that have more expirience then they. When an absolute statement is made by a moderater god that "all" such badges are fake then what is a novice collector to think when the same God then waffles later on in the thread?

The other observation I would make is that threads tend to degenerate into "it's not like mine" or "how about this badge" instead of sticking to the subject.

Lorenzo, thanks for trying to keep this thread focused- I for one want to learn.

Gailen- you still have my trust and confidence. I have a lot to learn and you are a decent person to learn from.

Now, let's discuss this badge. Are all WH, WEIN marked badges bad???
Don

**skip** · 10-03-2003, 03:54 AM

"Fighting for WHAT? I have made NO assertion that the badge is either "real" or "fake"! Read the thread again, please! I am trying to open up this discussion. Note that an opening statement "...on original WH's you never will see "Wien" following the MM.", has now been softened consideraby to "...it could be an original even with the Wien mark."

For me it has not been softened at all, IMO the Wien marked badges are duff

"I think this is progress toward finding the truth about this badge."

What, the only progress is that we all still think its fake

"Also, please read my intitial comments..."I have "no dog in this fight" as I do not own a "WH Wien" Flak badge. However, this badge has long interested me since "WH Wien" marked Flak badges have long been purported to be fakes on this Forum. "

They have been purported to be fake because they are just that, IMO fake

"What I would buy is irrelevant. More important is that this badge be scrutinized on its own merit rather than on long-term beliefs that it is "fake" without ever being analyzed. I have NEVER SEEN a thread on this Forum that has thoroughly analyzed this badge. Seems that SOMEBODY said it was fake and everybody followed suit. I think now we have an opportunity to learn about this badge and draw our own conclusions."

The badge has been scrutinized extensivly, more so than a lot of other badges on this forum. I see no reason to believe that just because somebody said it was fake the rest followed suit. I believe it to be fake, that is my opinion and not someone elses.
So come on Lorenzo, what is then your opinion on the badge, is it good in your eyes?

"The other observation I would make is that threads tend to degenerate into "it's not like mine" or "how about this badge" instead of sticking to the subject."

The best way to study a badge is to compare it to other badges that are generally accepted as being original

"Lorenzo, thanks for trying to keep this thread focused- I for one want to learn."
Funny, for me this is a thread were Lorenzo has not kept it so focused, more like knock down comments to other people who have presented their arguments.Usually we see some really nice photo comparisons from you Lorenzo, in this thread you seem to limit youself to critizing other peoples opinions

"Gailen- you still have my trust and confidence. I have a lot to learn and you are a decent person to learn from."
Well hats of to Galien. I can only say that this would be the expected behaviour when I buy any item from a dealer and am not, in an acceptable period of time, happy with it. Give it back, get your money back, thats normal for crying out loud, nothing to give a pat on the back for

"Now, let's discuss this badge. Are all WH, WEIN marked badges bad???"
We´ve discussed this over 4 pages, IMO its still a fake.

With that I will bow out of this discussion as well. Unless somebody gets this thing bombarded with Neutrons and can bring conclusive evidence that it is more than 60 years old it remains in my eyes a fake.

Skip

**Lorenzo Brown** · 10-03-2003, 06:55 AM

OK. Let's get back on topic. Perhaps we can try a different approach.

Can somebody post good, clear front and back examples of an authentic "WH" marked IAB and/or an authentic "WH" Luft Flak badge. Maybe we can learn something about this maker's badge characteristics and compare them to the "WH Wien" badge in question.

**mgidhagen** · 10-03-2003, 08:21 AM

A Genuine Fake W.H. Wien...

Just throwing in a picture of a 100% fake W.H. Wien badge, where bronze seems to be the base metal and the hinge/pin/catch are made of brass. Obviously, the maker has tried to copy some "bubbling" to the reverse, and some sloppy dealer has added some realistically-looking signs of wear...

Cheers,
Mike G

**Kecon** · 10-03-2003, 09:20 AM

Gentlemen

One dealer of third reich and such material I've known for near twenty
years. I've bought many original pieces from him at fair prices. That
said, however, In most of the years I've known him he has always had
a large selection of fake awards on hand for sale. Such things as Floch
EK1's, Frank& Reif U-boats, RS&S HSF's Schwerin Navy badges and so on.
Oh yes and usually always a minty WH Wein flak or two. Thats been my
lesson to stay away from these WH Wein marked pieces.

I might add. I like these discussions but don't care much for the fighting.
I think we can all discuss these things in a civil manner and remain friends.

Regards
Ken

**Lorenzo Brown** · 10-03-2003, 11:07 AM

Here are pictures of the reverses of the badges pictured so far on this thread.
#1 From Mike G
#2 from Frank
#3 From Gailen
#4 from internet site

<img src="http://photofile.homestead.com/files/whflakcomp1.jpg">

**Lorenzo Brown** · 10-03-2003, 11:18 AM

OBVERSES

<img src="http://photofile.homestead.com/files/whflakcomp2.jpg">

**MH184** · 10-03-2003, 11:53 AM

"Not withstanding your good faith, the whole idea of the forum, IMO, is to present information so collectors can draw their own conclusions without having to rely soley on the opinions of others"

Lorenzo,

I won't take umbrage, but I take the hint, I'm just disappointed in someone I respect and like........you've helped me in PM's and on the forum a many a time. I'm a complete neophyte, look at the thousands I spent on fakes, what a fool am I.

There seems to be some other melee I walked into, with purposeful equivocation. But to cavil what I expressed, I find mildly pejorative and invidious.

True, I don't think you can be too pendant with these badges, I've learn't that the hard way. You to your credit are trying to explore that. I only share the opinions of 'others' on the putative evidence, thus so far. You see as I learn, I can only rely on the testimony of more conversed individuals.

And yes I trust them, and you, you have the experience I lack, in this comity of peers there are moderators and members of many I would trust and take their word and advice. I simply don't have the conviction or confidence in myself yet to any lesser or greater degree. But I'm a quick learner. Only 5 months ago, I found out my entire collection was bo@#$'s. You guys saved me thousands, I see things from a different perspective and I appreciate and value your help.

And now I've blotted my copy book, but I really shouldn't feel I have to justify myself.

Kind regards

Marcus

**IVAN** · 10-03-2003, 02:07 PM

Hi guys,

PLEASE, give up from disputes.

I didn't come in this thread before because normally if I don't have good knowledges, normally I prefere to read , learn and do my conclusions for myself.

About flak WH marked WH Wien I have no knowledge but I answer to the request of Lorenzo and , for me, is interesting to compare badges between them ONLY made from this firm, marked WH or WH Wien.

well, follow is my simple LW flak in zinc late-war time and is interesting not the obverse side but the reverse to look the zinc type and the hinge-pin catch.

by my opinion for number 1 -2 -3 is difficult they can be cosidereted original war-time badge for its material first, but then from their hinge-pin - catch too ( sure if they were showed in Manion's site they were at one take as "fakes") !

only #4 have similar parts and the zinc looks like "normal" zinc as we usually see in these badges. the hallmark "WH WIEN" can be done , why not?

but my personal conclusion I would not like to have ALL 4 in my collection.

regards

ivan

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