Let me put it this way. This badge is unlike any W.H. Fake badge I have ever seen. It is from a totally different die. I am as interested as the rest of you about this.
Cordially yours,
Gailen David
Cordially yours,
Gailen David
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Hi David,
IMO the badge you posted design wise comes very close to what I would think is this unmarked L/21 Foerster & Barth. Compare the overall detailing and specialy the eagles head to yours.
What do you think?
KR
PhilippeComment
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I have found another scan of a "WH Wien" marked Flak badge and I have posted it below, IMO it looks virtually
identical to the "F&B" posted by Philippe. I have noted a few small areas of difference, however,
the badges otherwise appear near identical.
But I do have some questions:
1) I have never seen Foerster and Barth attributed as a Flak badge maker. Philippe, can we see the
reverse and why you are attributing that badge to F&B?
2) Are you saying that the F&B is authentic and that the WH is copied from it?
or...that BOTH are fakes????
or...another possiblity is that BOTH badges used the same basic obverse design?
Still more discussion of these badges would be good.
<img src="http://photofile.homestead.com/files/whflak2.jpg">Last edited by Lorenzo Brown; 10-02-2003, 11:58 AM.Visit my Badge Collection: http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.htmlComment
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Hi Lorenzo,
Now things are going to get a little complicated.
Look at the pictures of the reverse, I know this setup from one of my unmarked IAB's and thought it to be from an unknown maker. That is untill I found an L/21 marked IAB in Yuri's first article on IAB's. this setup is so unique that for me this is sufficient proof to attribute these badges to Foerster and Barth.
http://www.wehrmacht-association.com...ens/2/79/1.htm
However and here things get still more complicated, The L/21 IAB obverse is identical to L 14 IAB. So this for me proofs that F&B certainly was one of those companies buying rather than making there dies.
If we relate this to the Flak badge than IMO this F&B obverse design isn't unique and most probably was shared by other makers too. So why not by WH. I know the badge you just posted and I'm not certain if it is ok because on the back it's also marked "Wien" but IMO detailing on this one is a lot better than on David's badge which for me makes it easier to belief that it could be an original even with the Wien mark. Like I told you what I know about the "Wien" mark I learned on this forum but I'm always open to learn new things.
KR
PhilippeComment
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I don't want to add to any contention here, or follow on from people that know more about badges than myself, I'm not conversant with these at the best of times. This may be an incorrect and a trivial observation but.............
I'm dubious of the hinge and pin, I have seen such a style of pin on fake silver IAB's with no maker mark, sometimes the pin is also brass. But it's that hinge for me. I have no comment on the catch.
Searching through the forum threads I can't find one similar to Gailens, only pointers which would lead me to think it was fake. I can only go on what I read and see and the accepted norm for originals and fakes. As a novice collector I want to be safe in a purchase, I understand not everything is always text book..........and variations exist.
Based on my trust for Frank, Skip and Phil in this case as they seem to be of the opinion the badge is fake. I would go with them if I was contemplating to purchase the badge, to be safe.
But, thats neither here nor there, I must agree both badges are 'different' and you can argue this both ways, but as we've seen on here, and from personal experience, existing fakes are 'updated' as in the series of fake Juncker pilot observer badges.
Gailen, I'm sorry you had to enter on such a note. I will try to provide a picture of the fake hinge, if anyone else has files on fakes please would they look at their IAB's hinges also. I believe this could be one other possible constructive point in determining the originality.
I'm only a small fish, just trying to help out
kind regards,
MarcusComment
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Gentlemen
I'd like to add one of my own to the mix. I've a very similar piece
that I think is an unmarked Kreigsmetal WH. At least I think its one.
I've already determined that this is a fake. Maybe I'm wrong. What
do any of you think?
Regards
Ken
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Dear Ken,
To the best of my knowledge that an other sure fake. No authentic Heer Flak badge will ever show this kind of eagles head. You realy can spot these from miles away and the head is always the dead give away. Trust me.
KR
PhilippeComment
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Reverse
This also has a hindge form area. It is weighty at about 32 grams.
KenComment
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Well, one thing for sure is that it IS getting "complicated"..
Regarding the "F&B" hinge and catch, I believe it is a good type and as shown in Angolia's book published in 1976.
I have the same Flak and IAB and believe them to be authentic. See the picture of mine below and note the
sharp details. Again note the hinge and catch as pictured on page 98 of Angolia's book.
Still don't understand why this is being called an "F&B"! The hinge, pin and catch bear NO resemblance to known
F&B examples which are typically Kriegsmarine. I don't get the "L/14" IAB connection, but perhaps this would
be better addressed in another thread. Perhaps Yuri could reopen his thread and we could address that as a
separate issue.
@Marcus "Based on my trust for Frank, Skip and Phil in this case as they seem to be of the opinion the
badge is fake. I would go with them if I was contemplating to purchase the badge, to be safe."
Notwithstanding your good faith, the whole idea of the Forum, IMO, is to present information so collectors
can draw their own conclusions without having to rely solely on the opinions of others.
As a final note...let's get back "on track" and discuss the "WH Wien" Flak badge that is in question!
<img src="http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/files/flakunmarked2.jpg">Last edited by Lorenzo Brown; 10-02-2003, 12:25 PM.Visit my Badge Collection: http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.htmlComment
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Hi Lorenzo,
Don't know if you looked at the L/21 IAB from Yuri, here it is. IMO this typical hinge and catch construction should be sufficient evidence to link the Flak with that same setup to F&B. I never saw this reverse setup in combination with an other mm. Most of the time these badges are unmarked. Hope you don't mind me using these pics Yuri.
The L14 IAB reference I just used to proof that F&B just bought and not designed their dies.
KR
PhilippeComment
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L21 maker mark for Foerster & BarthComment
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And if there are people who still want it a little more complicated, here is my unmarked Heer Flak badge, also attributed to F&B based upon, yes you guessed it, the reverse setup.
Probably you 'll all notice that the general layout comes again very close to the badge Lorenzo and myself posted above.Last edited by Philippe DB; 10-02-2003, 12:52 PM.Comment
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Reverse heer FlakComment
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Eagle's head
Warning: don't try this at home with the eagles heads on the badges posted by Ken and David. You'll most likely never recover from the shock
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OK..I see what you are saying:
You have an IAB with an "L/14" design that is hand-stamped "L/21".
From that you conclude that ALL IAB's with the same hinge and catch assembly MUST BE made by Foerster & Barth...even though they have different obverse patterns.
From THAT you conclude that the unmarked Flak badge with the same hinge and catch MUST BE made by Foerster & Barth.
As "proof" you show another Flak badge that is similar, but NOT the same as the unmarked example, and that has a hinge and pin assembly that is "coke-bottle" in design, but is NOT the same as known Foerster & Barth examples.
So now you have TWO purported F&B zinc Flak badges, different in design and with different assemblies, neither of which match known F&B examples!!!
And from all of this , you CONCLUDE that the Flak badge(s) were made by F&B.
Fair enough!! I cannot argue with your logic, or lack thereof. I would again suggest, however, that the "F&B" topic be moved to another thread because I am not sure that it is particularly relevant to this discussion.
Can we get back to discussing the "WH Wien" badge?Visit my Badge Collection: http://lbmilitaria.homestead.com/home.htmlComment
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