Sniper badge -- opinions appreciated

[Jeff V]

reverse

[Jeff V]

I can't find my pictures of the silver grade so I will have to retake them tomorrow.
Is anyone familiar with HSC's wares and can they confirm that these are the identical patches that HSC was offering?
best wishes,
jeff

[quankle]

sniper badges

Jeff, I like the badge that you have posted, and I like John's also. I have spent many hours in the past studying sniper badges (including badges that Forman, Wolfe and Niemann liked), down to counting the number of white stitches in the design around the eye and the head. There are minor differences in all of the badges pictured on the thread. Bill Stump would have said that they are all post war. Some like one and not another. Who knows at this point? Opinions are all over the place. I would personally never buy another at this point because of that. (Although if I were buying, Jeff and John, I would buy either of yours!)

[Mike Davis]

Another posted for comparison. Additional images here:

http://www.virtualgrenadier.com/museum_item.php?iid=118

The material onto which the badge is embroidered is a very thin felt type fabric, almost the consistency of tissue paper.

[Jeff V]

Thanks Mike for the additional badge.
Here are some additional pictures of my two pieces.
A close look yesterday showed me that the grey wool backing material was slightly different colors on my examples as well as the green threads on the leaves.
Also, I have a blacklight picture.
For those that care, both pieces came with a Detlev COA.
best wishes,
jeff

[Jeff V]

silver reverse

[Jeff V]

both badges obverse

[Jeff V]

reverse

[Jeff V]

Uv

[John R.]

Very interesting especially when studied with the two links to other threads above.

Let me see if I have it right:

1. The sniper patch was definitely awarded.

2. Photos do not exist of it on a uniform during the war, but to me this makes sense due a comment in one of the other threads--do you really want this patch on your uniform if caught? The running down and killing of the Marine snipers in Iraq a year or so ago shows what can happen to even the highest trained sniper teams. These snipers were not show-offs. If something was not necessary to their survival, I do not think they, with some exceptions maybe, would have worn it.

3. Bob, Mark Edwards, Quankle, John, Jeff and some others all have these patches and they all vary in some small ways.

4. Bob has a uniform with the patch on but does not make any claim that it was or was not applied during or after the war. However, the patch appears original to him plus he has others.

5. Jeff's patches have zero UV emission. Hard to believe both would pass this test for a post war made patch. Possible, as the UV test is just one test of many others that you can apply. However, his also pass the burn test and have Detlev's COA. I would think Detlev would be pretty familiar with the French made fakes seen at the SOS a few years ago.

6. If fakes exist, they should also be at MAX this year, so something to try to find and study there.

So, an interesting thread, but based on what we have seen so far, in any of the three threads including this one, I do not think we have proven that any of the patches shown are fakes. Fakes exist of everything under the sun of course, but the main problem seems to be the lack of photographic evidence of them on uniforms. I do not think any of these snipers put such a patch on their uniforms. I also think the patch would be sent to families after their deaths in combat, so the timeline is immaterial.

Case in point is the award of the RSS High Seas Fleet badge to the Scharnhorst crews' families after that ship was sunk. Every military in the world does this, like the Purple Heart for a killed serviceman, to the family plus other decorations that serviceman might have earned in the circumstances surrounding his death.

I wish somebody had the French fake to post so we could look at it carefully.

Anyway, great thread--

John

[Bob Hritz]

I recall, at the SOS, in 2006, seeing a comparison between an authentic sniper badge and one that was referred to as a "French fake". The alledged "French fake" was pretty good, but there were subtle differences in the embroidery, bobbin thread, and material. Of course, had I seen the alledged "French fake" alone, I could certainly have been fooled. By itself, it would be hard to dismiss the alledged fake as a copy. Even though the source may be well known for reproductions, he has also found tons of original material.

I believe these came in both the light gray and the feldgrau that have been posted. To date, I have yet to see the 'perfect' copy.

I believe that Detlev Niemann has made a study of the variants of this badge, from known awarded groups.

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

This is a photo of a sniper badge, currently for sale on I-offer, by someone with a less than sterling reputation for authentic militaria.

There are differences in the background material and embroidery. The biggest difference is the 2 stage embroidery of the acorn instead of the over-embroidery as seen on those I believe to be original. Note the lack of proper shape to the left leaf. Pretty nice, however!!!!!!

Bob Hritz

[John R.]

Thanks for the link Bob. Another fine website. Here is the same seller's silver version front and back. John

[John R.]

back

[Jeff V]

Thanks for your thoughts Bob. If I am reading your post correctly you believe that originals came in both the light gray and field gray backing like the ones shown by myself and quankle in this thread. To my eyes they are exactly the same as the light gray backed version owned by yourself, Markus, and the one that John Donovan posted.
The fake that you posted is decent but not similar at all to the patches in this thread.

To John Donovan- When we spoke some months back re: the french fake seen at the SOS you mentioned a main difference was the absence of the white bobbin thread on the reverse of the fake. Since mine and quankle's silver grade badges have a reverse exactly the same as the one you posted with the white bobbin thread on the reverse they must be different from the french fake you described.

If someone would like to see the Niemann expertises for my patches I would be happy to post them.
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on this rare and mysterious badge.
best wishes,
jeff