Bronze Pab

[DaveJ]

Any ideas as to the maker on this hollow badge,comments,
Dave

[DaveJ]

The back

[Chet Sowersby]

Dave, I don't think this badge is pre-45. The wreath on the obverse is indistinct at the 7 thru 9 o'clock position. It is also wider above the tank as opposed to below the tank. This could be due to the angle of the picture but I don't think so. I do not care for the allingment of the tracks or the wheels. The idlyers are not equal in form either. Hard to tell if the eagle has any talons from the picture. When viewed from the reverse the wreath is un-even all the way around the badge. There is also a large "blob" at the end of the tank barrel. This is just my opinion and Lord knows I've been wrong before.


Best wishes, Chet

[Philippe DB]

Hi Dave,

I tend to agree with Chet on these PAB's. For me the biggest give aways are the eagles head, the rust that seems to be visible under the hinge (alltough not on all badges they also seem to pop up in new condition) and the very poor detailing on the reverse.

It's my opinion that Wernstein PAB's were used as a model for these badges.

I'll post two more of them, one in worn condition and the other in brandnew condition. Since I don't remember where the pictures came from please let me know if anybody objects on me using them here.

KR
Philippe

[Philippe DB]

Silver in worn condition o

[Philippe DB]

Silver worn r

[Philippe DB]

Silver new condition o

[Philippe DB]

silver new condition r

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Gentelman,

The bronze piece posted by Dave J, was originally sold by myself. In reference to the reverse the detail on this piece is crisp and clean , the pic posted just does not show that. This unmarked example shows the character of an EWE rather than a Wernstein, so I am told by Mike Pinkus . While my main focus is LW I have studied the PAB 's and their ocean of fakes and have no issue with this piece. This piece was originally purchased from another member and was vetted on the forum before selling it with some others. I have no problem with taking the piece back, that is how I am. This badge originally had more gunk on the front and I carefully cleaned it off as it took away from the piece. The reverse had nice green vertigis( Hmmmm.........always spell that word wrong) on the back and should still have some in the recesses. I don't think it is a fake and as stated will gladly take it back, with full refund to the original buyer from me, no questions asked.

I would also like to hear more on why this may not be Pre-1945, I am always looking forward to learning more. But , sometime we have a tendancy to go on a witch hunt, so please good solid intel would be much appriciated. As I said money is not the issue for me province is.

Ian , please emty your mailbox.



Best Regards,
JD

[Chet Sowersby]

Joe. I do not consider this a "witch hunt'. I stated the reasons for my opinion. The wreath is not symetrical as it goes around the badge. There is a very noticeable lack of definition on the inside portion of the wreath. This is from the turret down to the bottom of the tracks. Viewing from the obverse it is located from the seven to nine o'clock position. Just lately there was a very good thread dealing with the same issue on A.W.S. PAB's. This lack of definition is pretty much in the same location. Sorry, I would not feel comfortable with this badge. Again, this is just my opinion and no "witch hunt".

Best wishes, Chet

[Joseph D'Errico]

Here are the original pics of the same badge Dave posted.

Head shot.

@ Chet, didn't mean it like that, what I mean lets get some hard intel, like in your second response.

JD

[Joseph D'Errico]

Here is the reverse of the same piece.

JD

[Joseph D'Errico]

Pics of the Obverse, befor I clean off some of the gunk.

I hope these will help out. To bad the area of the reverse that Chet referenced is shadowed if and when I get the piece back I will reshoot that area so we can have a better look.

Best Regards,
JD

[Philippe DB]

Hi Joe,

After posting my reply I kept on looking at this badge and I admit that it is a difficult one. I for once can't give you definitive proof on this being a good or a bad badge. I just have to rely on my one collection an on what I learned on this forum.

The pictures I posted were sitting for a long time in my one copy files probably because this type of badge was discussed on the forum in the past.

The biggest problem I have with these badges is the very poor definition visible on the reverse. Such poor definition is miles away from any of my hollow back PAB's. Ok probably this isn't proof for anything but for me it's the first feature I look for when looking at a holowback PAB.

I agree with you that the badge layout is closer to an AWS then to a Wernstein badge. Probably wasn't awake early this morning and focused to much on the grass area alone.

However the fact that it is based on an AWS makes it even more difficult to reach a conclusion on this PAB. Over the last 4 weeks we had 2 threads on the massive AWS, only recently some kind of conclusion was reached, and if I remember correctly even you were happy that the fog finaly cleared. But did it?

Final conclusion was, and correct me if I'm wrong that except for the ones which clearly showed the typical crimping technique, all the other AWS PAB shown in these threads were fakes and everybody seemd to agree that these massive AWS PAB were probably the best copies ever produced. If this is in fact so what would have kept these guys from trying it again but now with a hollow back.

OK that just my theory, but in the end everybody has to decide for himself what's acceptable and what isn't so I'm certainly open to be proven wrong on this one and there are for sure people to be found with more experience on these PAB's then me.

KR
Philippe

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Philippe,

Well, great response , BUT I made a mistake in stating that it was an AWS. Mike Pinkus identified it as an EWE. Sorry about that, I edited my first post from AWS to EWE.

I am sure that Mike will jump in and correct me, as I am sure that Frank H. and Lorenzo will also have much to contribute. I look forward from hearing from them as well. Not my thread but thank you kindly for the input. So, not AWS means we need some EWE examples posted by other memebers.

Best,
JD