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The circular guide area is very odd - I have seen such mounting guides on Flak hinges but never for catches. And the way it doesn't fit...well sure, it might be just this one. It just doesn't sit right with me. I am holding the WH WIEN that started this thread and it just seems wrong. But hey- who the hell am I? Just FYI I am putting WH WIEN in the book's section of suspect, unknowns, maybes, and I have no clues...
MarcComment
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No problem with how you classify it on my end. But, I think that based on how you have discussed this, or rather did not really discuss it in any meaningful way, that you did have some pre-concieved ideas that were substantially negative.
That's fine but I don't think anything has been accomplished. Certainly the badge you led off with I would never have purchased as it is clearly so poor an example I can't imagine anyone with even a moderate to low level of knowledge would buy it.
I am by no means saying the one I have is good but it is certainly a much better specimen than the one you posted, and trying to compare the one that I have with the one you posted is like comparing a apple with a car.
What I think would be useful to all of us would be a picture of the catch on a known fake that looks like this. So far I have not found one though I have been looking for at least a year now.
Gary
Originally posted by Flak88 View PostComment
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Gary.
I agree with you that the one that started this thread is one none of us would want. I've seen so many that have the appearances of yours that we have deemed fake. The silvery finish that yours demonstrates has always put me off. The biggest negative factor is the one that I alluded to earlier, none of these have ever encounted in a group with any providence. I am still sitting on the fence concering these badges due to this factor.
ChetZinc stinks!Comment
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Hi Chet,
Yes I agree with you on those points for sure. The color doesn't bug me per se, but the shape of the adlers head certainly does. I have never seen another badge from anyone that looked this way. What I find intriguing is the zinc rot. If they can fake that this well I am truly impressed. To date I have not seen the rot on another badge like this.
Do you or anyone else have an idea when these first showed up? When I found it at the flea market I was pretty jazzed but then as new information shows up and these are cast into doubt that gets replaced with a desire to know who made it and when.
Gary
Originally posted by Chet Sowersby View PostComment
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Gary,
Check out the thread I link to in the top of the post - it has one with a post-war catch and also some info on when these came out. As for preconceived notions, well, I am pretty sure i have that about everything in life! But as my desire to discuss these badges show I am looking for those with greater wisdom than I.
MarcComment
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Hello all,
Here are more scans of the badge.Comment
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Hi guys,
Well, if you look at Hobacher CCCs, they do provide a raised circular area around the catch and a raised area demarking the hinge, similar to Gary's Flak badge. That is something tangible that I like about Gary's, but there are a few other things that bug me:
1. Hobacher CCCs typically used a barrel hinge on their CCCs as far as I can tell. The CCC is clearly a later war badge, so its odd to me that Hobacher didn't use a sheetmetal hinge on their CCCs. Sheetmetal hinges are considered later war, but it is apparent that Hobacher wasn't really following this trend because every Hobacher CCC I have ever found has a barrel hinge (except 1). Why would Hobacher use a sheetmetal hinge on an earlier badge such as the Heer flak, only to switch to a higher quality barrel hinge later on in the war on their CCCs? Should be the other way around.
2. Something a bit more telling to me is the little gear wheels on the obverse (see picture). The lizardman fake has these very defined dots on these gear wheels and is something I use to quickly identify the lizardman fake. Looks like Gary's flak has the same type of characteristic. I am not THAT familiar with Heer flaks, so I don't know if other originals have this characteristic, but if no original does, then I think this could be a technical aspect that helps join Gary's and the Lizardman fake.
TomIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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reverseComment
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Tom,
I wish it was that simple. The highly-dimpled gears you point out is a charachteristic of the Vienna-design found on Souval, F&B, etc.
MarcComment
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Hi Guys,
One thing that I wonder about is the darkening of the solder at the catch and hinge. The badge feels good to me in hand, for whatever it's worth.
Looks like it was hastliy assembled, possibly late war.
Are those lines on the back filing marks?
Chet, have you ever examined one of these in hand? If not, I will get it to you if you want to examine it.
KR,
MikeComment
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Hi Tom,
You bring up some good points. As far as using the sheetmetal vs. barrel hinge on the CCC, I think the reason is one of profile. The sheetmetal hinge is a much higher profile and on a clasp that would be problematic. Also because of the preassures involved a barrel hinge works much better in a clasp than almost any other type.
GaryOriginally posted by tdurante View PostComment
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Hi MArc,
I had read the original posted thread before I put my badge up. I just thought your response was very perfunctory and not useable so got a little irate because I was hoping for some more information on these badges. What I was hoping for was an earliest date that my particular variant was observed. That might help to pin down who is making them.
Gary
Originally posted by Flak88 View PostGary,
Check out the thread I link to in the top of the post - it has one with a post-war catch and also some info on when these came out. As for preconceived notions, well, I am pretty sure i have that about everything in life! But as my desire to discuss these badges show I am looking for those with greater wisdom than I.
MarcComment
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Gary,
There is a thread on the GCA where they claim one version of the WH WIEN is good and another a fake, based upon a catch, but I don't think it is enough for me. Without any evidence I just have to say I have serious doubts about this type but little else. In badge collecting sometimes it just comes down to what you are comfortable with.
MarcComment
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Interesting thread..Here is one I always thought was OK but was never 100%. I did run it by Mike Tucker and he thought it to be a good one as well. Looks great in hand,good detail etc.
Is this not a Souval type catch?
Glenn"A Man's Got to Know His Limitations"Comment
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