WH WIEN Discussion

[Marc Garlasco]

Gents,

So ever since I started on the forum I was told the Heeresflak by WH WIEN are all fakes. Recently, in discussion with a very knowledgeable collector I started to question this assertion. Now on GCA there is supposedly an "accepted" version. My question - WHY do we believe them to be fakes, some real, and what is the current state of knowledge on these badges? I want to air this before I label the FAKE in my book.

So here are photos of one considered fake. The "real" ones have a bite in the inside of the catch. I am still trying to work this out...

Anyway, discuss!
Marc

[Don D.]

If we are going to call them good now I need to go out and make some purchases. Why do we now think they are good after all these years?

[Marc Garlasco]

Don,
I NEVER said they are good. I am just looking for a debate. Calm down and keep the cash in your pocket!

Marc

[Marc Garlasco]

Don,
Like I said in my post, if I am labeling a badge as fake in my book, I want a solid discussion on it first.
Marc

[Johnny R]

WH Wien

I also cannot saw they are good or bad but I have a badge with this marking that was brought back from Europe in 1962. I would think a fake of this quality would have been produced later but who knows. I have had German collectors tell me it is real and many Americans tell me it is fake.

[Don D.]

I also cannot saw they are good or bad but I have a badge with this marking that was brought back from Europe in 1962. I would think a fake of this quality would have been produced later but who knows. I have had German collectors tell me it is real and many Americans tell me it is fake.

Why would quality fakes be made later vs right after the war when dies, materials and trained workers were available and motivated? I'm sure Souval isn't the only guy who latched on to dies and pumped out badges.

[Johnny R]

Why would quality fakes be made later vs right after the war when dies, materials and trained workers were available and motivated? I'm sure Souval isn't the only guy who latched on to dies and pumped out badges.

I wasnt around then but I do not really think there was a cottage industry market for these or motivation to create dies and obtain machinery until later. People right after the War were not making awards in factories. My family was there and the main concern until the 1950s was staying alive.

Does anyone really know what types of fakes were being produced that early? Most the early stuff in the US was complete garbage, lead etc.

[Marc Garlasco]

Don is right - the pros were churning out badges right after the war as Dietrich has shown. So I have no problem with it being a great quality fake. But I want to talk intelligently about it. Just basing it on how great it looks is useless. The fakers would win hands down!

[Johnny R]

"But I want to talk intelligently about it."

This is odd for the WA, especially in the awards section, but wonderful.

So if it is a copy they were being made as early as 1962.

That is all I can offer to you.

Without witnesess or manufacturing dates of this badge or physical documentation of the specific badge markings I don't know where else you can go?

Everything else is just an opinon.

[Bruce Simcox]

I do remember.....

......that in the 60's(1960-1969), and most likely earlier, that in almost any gun magazine that one could buy off the rack, there were always German WWII medals offered for sale. Many were offered as copies taken from original wartime dies. It is not hard to still obtain issues of these magazines. I am saying this just to address the question of whether or not copies of medals and badges were made during that period.

However, I do not think it to be farfetched that Germans would have continued to make and sell the same wartime badges to SELL to souvenir hungry G.I.'s, so that they could turn those U.S. dollars into food that they could then EAT. I know that I would if I were hungry.

[Marc Garlasco]

Now is that nice to say when you don't know someone? Misunderstandings abound, buddy...

"But I want to talk intelligently about it."

This is odd for the WA, especially in the awards section, but wonderful.

So if it is a copy they were being made as early as 1962.

That is all I can offer to you.

Without witnesess or manufacturing dates of this badge or physical documentation of the specific badge markings I don't know where else you can go?

Everything else is just an opinon.

[Johnny R]

Misunderstandings indeed

Now is that nice to say when you don't know someone? Misunderstandings abound, buddy...

I have read the threads for over a year now but do not post on awards because it is not my area of collecting unless I have something constructive to say.

90% of the posts on WA contain opinion statements and assumptions not based on facts but rather interpretations developed from either personal observations or hearsay.

In the first thread you are asking for an objective discussion involving facts specific to the markings on this one award. IMO this is great to see.

Although interesting and entertaining, "I think" "I know" "I bet" creates nothing leading towards anything other than more of these types of Statements.

All this does is reify collector myths into false truths that really benefit no one aside from the false comfort achieved by convincing yourself you "know" something. These things are not testable with data.

There most likely are documents that could be tracked down to figure out if these awards and maker marks are wartime production.

Some German (nationals) collectors seem to think this real. All I ever hear from American collectors is that anything marked in this way is fake but never any facts backing it up.

It has become a mantra and is never supported with documentation only the chant "It's fake. . . It's fake" .

I am delighted that you have elected to try to lead a discussion on this seeking factual information.

[Johnny R]

Mine badge

Here is mine, the detail quality is poor and I very much doubt it is real. This dates at least to 1962.

[Marc Garlasco]

As you had nothing constructive to add I do wonder why you bothered to post at this time, and in such a manner. Regardless, if you knew ANYTHING about me you would know I have contributed here for some time discussing badges in an attempt to gleen factual information.

If you know something about WH WIEN I would love to hear it. We do not need documents - there are MANY clues in the badges to help us including makers marks, hardware, etc.

[Johnny R]

Back

Back, crap catch, bad construction