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**Chris Taylor** · 06-20-2003, 11:55 PM

Back.....

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miniature012.jpg (41.4 KB, 212 views)

**Chris Taylor** · 06-20-2003, 11:56 PM

Close up of catch.....

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miniature013.jpg (29.7 KB, 211 views)

**Philippe DB** · 06-21-2003, 01:22 AM

Hi Chris,

Thats indeed a difficult one. Based on the obverse features I'm quit sure that it is, or is based upon an F&R PAB. Alltough I realy can't find any big mistakes the obverse detailing is a little fuzzy. Would you say that the eagles head is damaged?

Concerning the reverse, I think I can see that the badge shows some scoop but less pronounced then what I would expect to see on an F&R. Hinge catch and catchplate look also similar but not a perfect match. Pin is also a little thick in my opinion.

Try comparing it to the unmarked F&R from Robert in this thread

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=PAB+SILVER

I realy would like to hold this one in my hands before reaching a final conclusion.

KR
Philippe

**John T** · 06-21-2003, 07:35 AM

I am not sure if I like the catch and the base plate for the catch..also notice how the pin just about reaches the catch...

John

**Chet Sowersby** · 06-21-2003, 09:10 AM

Chris, I don't have any problems with the obverse. It's the reverse that I do not care for. Like Phillipe and John I am not keen on the catch/plate. It seems much thicker than normal. It is one that you would like to have in your hands to make a final determination.

Best wishes, Chet

**Chris Taylor** · 06-21-2003, 11:55 AM

Thanks all for the response & some very good points.

The head does show a lack of hard detail. I can just make out eye & beak detail, but it looks to either be from wear or maybe damage.

I'm attaching a bigger scan of the head detail below.

As you point out Philippe, the back does have a slight scooped appearance, but not quite as much as expected on a F&R.

Attached Files

miniature014.jpg (54.9 KB, 168 views)

**Chris Taylor** · 06-21-2003, 11:57 AM

The Pin & Catch were what I first questioned on this one too.

Upon closer inspection, it looks as though the catch may be a replacement, as I can see light solder & what looks like a spot where another catch may have been on the plate.

Maybe you can mahe it out in this scan...

Attached Files

miniature016.jpg (19.9 KB, 166 views)

**Chris Taylor** · 06-21-2003, 12:02 PM

Here is another shot of the catch where you can see what looks like the remanins of another catch next to the opening of the current catch.

Unfortionatly a replaced catch still dosen't still dosen't help me determine authenticity. It's just another riddle to an already confusing badge.

Any additional thoughts or comments would be a big help.

Thanks again.

Attached Files

miniature015.jpg (35.4 KB, 157 views)

**Mark S.** · 06-21-2003, 01:03 PM

I dont like this badge at all.

Sometimes, one might see certain details in particular on panzer badges that might give them pause, but the other details are correct enough to disregard them as an anomaly. This panzer badge has so many things I dont like about it, and the fact that I am having a very hard time finding something that I do like, it doesn't bode well.

In general terms:

1) the overall grainy texture bothers me greatly. it looks cast.
2) detail throughout the design is "chunky" and very poor defined. No crisp detail at all, anywhere. The wreath isnt even smooth around the edges, but wavy. All the edges of the design itself are dull, or rounded. All the detail to the tank seems to "melt" into adjacent detail.

More specifically:

3) The eagle lacks any kind of detail. The head is a blob and what happened to its feet? It is also out of proportion in comparison to other panzer badge eagles. The small feathers at the top of the wings look like scales on a fish.
4) the tank is horrible. The wheels arent symmetric, and the front cogs are just awful. Look at the wheels under the tank-why is the one in the rear bigger than the one in front? Obvious perspective problems, including the twist to the right tread. Look also at the area around idler wheels, cogs, etc. Back to the poor definition again. The bogey wheels looks like mounting bosses on a cast engine block, not separately detailed wheels. The details we are used to seeing on the panzer tank are rough and poorly defined. It also seems to be "flat", in relation to the badge itself.
5) The wreath looks like the detail was forced, like someone outlined the basic design and then went over the edges again with deeper and wider cuts. The veins in the leaves remind me of bird footprints in the sand.
6) the grassy area, well..isnt grassy. It is a blob with a few barely noticeable blades of grass, and I mean barely. They almost look like an accident. Maybe this is what happens when you dont redefine the detail, like on the wreath.

There is absolutely nothing I like about this badge. Any one of these points I outlined might stand alone when everything else looks good, but when they stack up like this, and I find myself grasping at straws trying find one thing I like about it, well...you do the math.

**keifer kahn** · 06-21-2003, 08:24 PM

Im with Mark on this one.
I believe Frank and reif played some part in the manufacture of this badge.
In supplying the original this one was cast from.

F&R typically do have poor detailing in the grass area and the road wheels are smaller at the front than the rear but overall this badge just lacks the refinements and just looks badly made.

Typical repro point is getting the badge looking close to an original but putting on a bogus catch and pin.

regards keifer

**Chris Taylor** · 06-21-2003, 08:57 PM

Thanks Mark, once you point it all out like this, I can see that the sum of the negative far out weighs any positive that there may be.

This one definitly goes into the "repro" box.

Thanks all for the comments & help on this one.

**Philippe DB** · 06-22-2003, 03:03 AM

Hi Chris,

Just so you can make a better comparison, here is my Bronze F&R, not in the best condition but it allows you to better understand all the things Mark described.

Don't take any chances on these F&R, marked or unmarked PAB's, If they are not texbook, look for an other one.

Good hunting

KR
Philippe

Attached Files

pka f&r brons o.jpg (42.1 KB, 108 views)

**Philippe DB** · 06-22-2003, 03:06 AM

F&R PAB reverse

Attached Files

pka f&r brons r.jpg (25.8 KB, 108 views)

**Chris Taylor** · 06-22-2003, 12:42 PM

Thanks Philippe,

The photos help a great deal in seeing what should & should not be on this badge.

Thanks again.

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