Juncker Bandenkampfabzeichen feature!

[Tommaso]

Diamond....same strange iperdetailed details of the previuos one...

[TRAVLRSEASIA]

Unfortunate Comments-why Make Our World Smaller?

This particular thread has reinforced to me that certain subjects on WA forums are perhaps too heated in which to have a constructive dialogue. The subject of the BandenKampfAbzeichen (BKA) as reinforced by Peter J's link and the comments posted in this thread are unfortunate. Despite the popularity of our hobby in collecting militaria it nevertheless is still a small niche field where we should be enjoying each other's opinions and collections..why make our world any smaller by disparaging differences of opinions?! I for one saw no hostility in Ludwig's queries and believe there is much to learn with regard to the BKA. As the prices being commanded for premier and quality pieces with provenance continue to skyrocket I understand some collectors get testy when their pieces' authenticity are questioned, but regardless I have seen so many contradictions in collecting in this period and with the BKA that it is impossible to be so certain about any particular maker.

The last two photos of the gold and gold with brilliant BKA posted by Tomaso reinforce the growing "lethality" among the prices and questionable authenticity being sought by collectors and auction houses. The BKA with brilliants I believe was offered by Hermann Historica in 2005 and generally accepted to be NOT/NOT authentic way before the piece was auctioned, yet it was still offered for sale by the auction house and I believe sold. To my mind the rear pin casting and Juncker maker mark of the Herman Historica badge was not accurate, and its finish did not appear in sync with authentic gold pieces I have seen in prominent collections. The gold with blue sword pictured by Tomaso was NOT/NOT similar in construction or guilding to the 4 awarded by Himmler in February 1945, or similar to the cased BKA in gold that I own that was awarded to a senior officer of the SS Para Battalion 500 in 1945. That these controversial pieces are still being offered is disappointing, yet the demand will engender fraud. The BKA in gold as decribed by WARLORD in the link offered by Peter J offers a finish with which I am not comfortable yet WARLORD is a noted collector and some other aspects of the badge ring true..that said, I still feel uncomfortable about it full authenticity..yet can I be certain as to my full knowledge..NO.

As for pieces made by AGMuK, there has been so much discussion as to whether there have actually have been uniformities in the construction of these pieces one actually forgets that the manner in their construction allowed for variations simply due to the poor processing and shortage of materials given the badge's issuance late into war.

I would like to quote from a thread on the BKA that was opened in 2002 by noted moderators and GENTLEMEN Frank Heukemes and Gordon Williamson.

I quote Gordon Williamson:

"...Juncker made a die stamped zinc badge, solid, with flat back. The semi-hollow backed type is actually a casting, the molten zinc being forced into the die under pressure, a system still used today for many industrial components. The blank is then placed in a finishing die and any excess flashing around the edges cropped off, this leaves die shearing marks around the edges and often gives the erroneous impression that these badges are stamped rather than cast.

The example in Robin Lumsdens book whilst probably genuine, is most certainly not a "typical" Juncker type piece as captioned, but the die cast AGMuK type..."

You will note that Gordon offers the possibility that certain pieces can be original despite being unique and offers no air of authority that is hostile or arrogant. I can say that I have seen BKA pieces with genuine provenance that offer so many differences in hinge, pin, and casting that one cannot be absolute about anything. Indeed, the discussion and difference of opinion as to these badges will rank up there in controversy with those of RK "Rounder" and SS collar tab discussions which constantly grace this forum. I believe we all can learn from the discussions and enjoy each others op eds if we simply keep in perspective that if none of us know enough about this hobby to be absolute. I will leave this commentary with one notable humorous irony..the Third Reich only lasted 12 years but it will undoubtedly succeed in lasting beyond its Millenium forecast simply by the questions being raised and forever unanswered with regards to its regalia.

[Tommaso]

Hi,

I can quote everything has been said about "Blue Sword" and "Diamonds".
The second, and maybe even the first I don remember now, are depicted on Patzwall as genuine...


Cheers
T

[Ludwig]

Tommaso, I never said you said the massive/full (massive and full means the same to me; not semi-hollow, but I might be wrong) badge wasn´t produced. And I never mentioned the badge with diamonds. Just to make that clear.
It´s almost 30 years since I held the golden APB with blued swordsblade in my hand, so of course I can´t be sure, when I say produced by Juncker. That´s only what I was told then, by Mr. Forman, who owned the badge. However. I do not think that the badge you have posted here is the same, that I saw. I am quite certain that Mr. Forman´s badge only had the blade of the sword blued. Not the entire sword.
Talking about Kübandner, there are two different award citations for the golden APB, with his name on it. One standard size (A5) and one "de luxe" version of larger size (A4? – I don´t remember anymore). Is it impossible that there were more than one award ceremony? I don´t think so. Perhaps Himmler wanted something special between himself and "his boys". Like Raeder/Dönitz with the Submarinebadge with diamonds, Göring with the Pilot´s badge with diamonds and Hitler with the CCC in Gold, KCs etc. We don´t know if perhaps Himmler had some "de luxe" APBs in gold made or not. I am still not talking about the badge with diamonds. Just a theory.

[Tiger 1]

As a very interested observer I have a question.

It's about the gold badge shown in post #34 that belonged to Bill Stump. What is the conventional and/or current wisdom regarding that particular type of Juncker badge?

Thanks!

Tony

[Tommaso]

Dear Ludwig,

I posted the Diamonds badge since it has quite the same details of the Blue Sword one, AGMuK front and Juncker back, then both fakes.
Regardings the Kuhbandner certificates as you know for sure there are around two different certificates for his Gold badge; one is fake of course since his name is mispelled...
I don't want to say a stupid thing but I think I remember both of them were owned by Foreman, and the fake went on sale few years back, so...
The other thing that concern me about the Blue Sword is that why if Kuhbandner and Prasch were awarded togheter with the Gold badge, only Kuhbandner had the Blue sword one?
Quite strange indeed.

To my opinion there were no "deluxe" badges, Himmler was happy enough of the 3 Stufen and miniatures badges.
I couldn't find any official documentation regarding the "Blue Sword", then maybe Ludwig you can help me and explain me where this "legend" came from, since there is NO trace of such badge on certificates, pictures etc.etc. : I would imagine that was Foreman the first person to talk about this variation, isn't it?

I post the fake (A - Kunbandner) and the genuine (B - Kuhbandner) certificates: the second one shold be Foreman property.
You can find the VERY SAME one (A) with the correct name (Kuhbandner) on Michaelis "WSS Gebirgsdivisionen"....so?
Somebody is playing with ink and paper, this is for sure.

Cheers
Tom

[Tommaso]

Foreman one.
Few months back I saw Prasch's Gold certificate for sale...
The paper was very close to this one but no the same.
I would say that was a fake as well.

Cheers
T

[Ludwig]

Well, I am not going to argue with you, since I really don´t know. My only source is Adrian Forman, that´s true. And I know he is not a 100% honest dealer, so perhaps he just made it all up. I have no personal interest in this. No prestige so to speak. As I said it´s almost 30 years ago since I held that badge and award citation in my hand and of course much has happened since then. And yes, the first citation you posted must be a fake. Even if you sometimes can see misspellings, I don´t think they accepted it on such a high award.

[searchexp]

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!!!!

[Dietrich Maerz]

.... This badge has to be seen rather as we see Oakleaves and Oakleaves & Swords to the Knight's Cross by Godet. There really is no way of telling the difference between a 1940s set and a 1960s set, thanks to Frau Klietmann's dubious business practices and ethics. ...

I know it really doesn't belong in here but since people are reading this I thought I might comment.
This modern myth of Frau Klietmann doing restrikes of the oaks and oakleaves with swords is just that - a myth. And a very stubborn at that! Posted hundereds of times - never prooven, never backed up with facts or reality.


Dietrich

[Ludwig]

I know it really doesn't belong in here but since people are reading this I thought I might comment.
This modern myth of Frau Klietmann doing restrikes of the oaks and oakleaves with swords is just that - a myth. And a very stubborn at that! Posted hundereds of times - never prooven, never backed up with facts or reality.


Dietrich

Just what I suspected. A myth.

[Tommaso]

Hi Ludwig,

I hope you didn't take my posts in the wrong way, I didn't mean to be offensive or to argue/clash about anything...just like to discuss about this stuff, that's it.

I really do not know if Foreman sold and set it up, but anyway still today I can't really understand where the "blue sword" legend came from...

Anyway, about Frau K., It might be a myth, I really don't know, but you can't deny that there are some BKA fakes around detailed even better than originals, so I would say somebody is working quite dirty.

Cheers
T

[Peter J.]

Hi Tommaso,

You mention the miniatures of the BKA, what sizes or shape are you referring to?

As for the rest of this thread, it's a shame we can't deal with this topic without infected "debates". This is not a game of win or lose (right or wrong) and a civilized discussion would be more appropriate. Chris, I don't need to beat a dead duck, but I never said our badges are fakes, only that I don't have faith in my own. Your positive comments on my solid Juncker made me question your credibility. The bottom line is:

If you present a statement saying a certain type of badge (design) is correct, you need to back it up with specifics i.g. setups, material, weigth etc. Merely referring indirectly to sources of purchase won't make the rest of us any wiser. Using the excause of not exposing the specific flaws is nothing but nonsense. If we can't discuss it here, how the heck are we than going to enhence our knowledge, ask you? . Other solid Junckers have been shown here for validation here on the forum and at least one had "100% original" attached to the response, given by our own Pieter. Perhaps his lack of commitment to this thread should give you something to contemplate.

cheers
Peter

[Jeff V]

There is much to still be learned on the subject of APB's. They are rare but there are a lot of original variants, especially with the so-called semi-hollow AGMuK. I can tell you that I have looked closely at coke-bottle pin semi-hollows that I can virtually guarantee were made by Juncker. The hardware is an exact match to other Juncker navy badges. I do not know where the misinformation came from that says that Juncker only made the solid backs and then they were bombed and production stopped for them. This is false. Frank H. uncovered evidence that some of the semi-hollow Numbered tank badges were produced by Juncker. In short, it is a BIG mistake to label one type only as original and all others to be fake if they do not exactly match the type that you own.
Also it is very important to study ALL badges (Kriegsmarine, Heer, and Luftwaffe) before pronouncing good from bad.
I will give an example. Schwerin made around four different U-boat badges in tombak. If I owned only a type one, it would be easy to make assumptions about the other three types.
Another example, not very many Kreigsmarine aux. cruiser badges were awarded, yet four manufacturers have been identified in buntmetal and a further NINE manufacturers in zinc. All this for a badge that was most likely awarded less than the APB.
My point is, there needs to be a lot more research before pronouncing one variant 100% original over all other examples. This will be very difficult and of course the fakers have not made our job any easier. There are types I am more comfortable from my research, but it would be a big mistake to think one knows it all when it comes to these badges. best wishes,
jeff

[SScollector]

Well, I don't know what else I can say. I never meant anything personal to anyone here. We are all entitled to share our own opinions here, and now that our opinions have all been shared, let's just try to focus on the research of the Bandenkampfs and see what facts we can come up with.
I'm sorry that I can't be more specific as to where I obtained my Juncker badges, without their permission, but I can well assure that they both came from very good sources. One of them was in a friend's collection for at least 20 years and it came from a legit source to him, long ago. If you don't believe me, then that is certainly your right, but there is no question about my integrity, and I would not say that they were from legit sources, if they weren't.

I have seen a few other vet purchased Junckers and learned a good bit from them, before I ever owned one. They were all, fairly consistent from one to another, (Only talking about this particular solid back variation), other than the pins and the cutouts. There are plenty of original Junckers on this forum that can be used for comparison, and there are many characteristics and flaws found on the original Junckers of this style.
As we all know, there is a thin strip of no finish or lacquer, directly behind the pin. Even the hinge, pin and catch have several specific features on the originals.

Peter, would you please send me the link, or repost the pictures of your Juncker APB here? I cannot remember which one was your badge, or what it looked like, but perhaps I could be more specific if you will repost it.
Strangely, I have never seen anybody get discouraged whenever someone
tells them that their badge is an original.
That is certainly a first for me. Why do you believe that it is a fake?

Anyway, I can well assure that the badge pictured here with the blued blade and the one with diamonds, are cast reproductions that were made from the more common, Simi-hollow variations, (whoever that maker was).
They are certainly lacking a great deal, and have obvious flaws and features that are incorrect and that plainly gives them away as being cast.
I have never seen a known original of either of these two special variations, so I have nothing more to offer on those.
I too, doubt that there were ever originals of these variations,
but who knows? Maybe an original will turn up someday.
I know that there was at least one other manufacture that made solid back and hollow variations, (besides the so-called Juncker and AGMuk
variations. Well, I guess that is all for now.

Best,
Chris