Juncker Bandenkampfabzeichen feature!

[Peter J.]

"I couldn't care less about what he thinks or what knowledge he has to offer."

It must be great knowing the ultimate truth . Perhaps this link can put some perspective into this thread:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...&highlight=bka

cheers
Peter

[SScollector]

Well, that's just another typical example of the heat that an APB thread
will cause. It doesn't matter if it is a Juncker, or the other style, there will always be those few people that will try to disagree with everything that someone else says, even if they have proof, or strong evidence.
If I said my badge is made of zinc, someone would say that it is aluminum.
However, I'm glad that you posted that link, because it shows that when
I call a fake, I also specifically explain why.

Anyway, I guess we can do nothing to come to an agreement,
unless we can just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Just know that I will always defend my own badges if someone says negative things about them. I can always explain and back up my reasons for saying whatever I say, and everyone should expect the same from anyone else. I too, am getting tired of all this arguing,
and I would like for this thread to end up being educational, productive, and free of bull****.
So, let's try to share our opinions without contradicting each other.
Can anyone think of something else to ask or talk about, that hasn't yet
been mentioned in this thread?
Perhaps someone has some pictures of some more Juncker APBs
that they could post here, so we can focus on other aspects
and study more things.

Best, Chris

[SScollector]

Here is one more pic with different lighting:

[SScollector]

Here is Bill Stump's original Juncker:
It has the proper, non-cut mouth and no cut-outs.

Best,
Chris

[Ludwig]

Where do I mention material?
Where do I mention shape?

I asked a serious question in a friendly way and got a busload full of bull**** in return.
I never asked for every single detail to detect original vs. fake. The fakers read this page, too, I guess.
The way this boy answers questions, makes me think he really doesn´t believe in the badge he so desperately is arguing for. Protecting.

So he doesn´t care what I think?
Then why does he react so strong?
He is reacting like all those hypocrite politicians, who "welcome" all opinions, and then spare nothing to more or less crush everything said that doesn´t suit them.

To be honest, I think he has just killed his own badge!

I followed the link Peter J. posted here. Really, really interesting, I must say.
Have to quote:

"Chris McClurkan aka SSCollector is behaving true to form! Along he comes with verdicts that can be summed up as "If it doesn't look like mine or my friend's, it's a fake". His firm position would be laudable were he able to back what he says up with evidence of serious research into the subject. Accepting the gospel of a few "high end collectors and dealers", as he once described his mentors on the GDC forum, doesn't qualify as research.

Every time this young man is challenged, he throws a temper tantrum and if pressed, does a disappearing trick. He did so recently on our forum, ***, when several people asked him to back his statements up. He likes to give the impression that people who question his statements rank amongst the dreamers and what-iffers and that if they cannot be bothered to pay attention to what he is saying, then they are not really worth answering. But when what he is saying is analysed, it soon becomes clear that he is not saying very much at all.

This is a 'dangerous' badge but originals do exist and there are several variations. I expect that if German veteran entitled to this badge were to pitch up and post photos of the badge he received, Chris would condemn it as a fake if it weren't exactly like the badges he uses as his yardstick. The thing is, how do we know if his yardstick badges are genuine. They don't look like the two badges I have seen in the possession of the families of the men who received them.

I am not saying that Chris's badges are fakes but I am being honest in saying that I do not know if they are or not. The fact is that, really obvious fakes aside, we do not know and will never know. This badge has to be seen rather as we see Oakleaves and Oakleaves & Swords to the Knight's Cross by Godet. There really is no way of telling the difference between a 1940s set and a 1960s set, thanks to Frau Klietmann's dubious business practices and ethics.

Chris McClurkan has what it takes to adopt an intellectual approach to study and research and, indeed, his knowledge of SS metal cap insignia seems impressive in one so young. But he has not been able to convince this reader that he knows more than the rest of us about the Bandenkampfabzeichen. He has merely adopted an established point of view but defends it without being able to support and consolidate his arguments. He retreats behind a mask of know-it-all arrogance when he encounters resistance or even a desire to know more and then does a runner when subjected to hard questioning.

I'd listen to him but I wouldn't scrap a badge on the strength of what he says.
PK"

This boy still has a lot to learn – IMHO.
All my love to all of you, no matter your opinion, no matter age, sex or race – as long as you can behave in a way that makes this forum a nice and interesting place to spend time in.

[Jørgen E]

This is a discussion board, and someone (read: SScollector) does not want other persons opinions, so why post a thread at all?

Ludwig just asked a question, not judging the badge FAKE.. The response however, was nothing like you would expect from a serious collector!

I am not going to express my opinion about this badge, because whatever I say, I guess I will be slaugthered like other members here..

I hope that I someday also will find the "ultimate thruth" to everything in collecting! I do not think I will though, and don't think you have either SScollector.. Face it!

[upbeek]

i have been trying to understand these badges for about 5 years now and the first type is a badge that i would not be happy with in my collection,after reading the link and wondering about all the variants there is truth to the opinion that the first type never existed,
the first original apb i bought was vet aquired and has minor zinc pest ,are there any first type badges out there that are the same?
a few years ago i recieved some information from jorg nimmergut about these first type apb,s and he said that the needle pin type shown in this thread was known as a fake from 1984,
i hope this thread is not deleted ,and i hope one day we will know for sure and we will ,
chay

[Ludwig]

My only (ONLY!!!) intention was to learn more about APBs.
Not to start an argument, not to offend SScollector, and certainly not to get offended by him.
But I´m glad to see there are more collectors who have understood this! Thanks guys!

[Ludwig]

Here is Bill Stump's original Juncker:
It has the proper, non-cut mouth and no cut-outs.

Best,
Chris

Obtained from the Luftwaffe Museum in the early 70´s... Not a very good source, I´m afraid.

[Tommaso]

Not a Juncker expert, by the way I have to say that among around 15 dug up BKA from my area there was no sign of Junckers, all were AGMuK.
I also need to say that I'm not noticed of any Junckers dug up BKA ever, and as far as I know I obtained infos about around 20/30 dug pieces found worldwide.
This doesn't mean nothing but I think could let us thinking about.
Also I couldn't find any picture of Juncker BKA on wear, even I have to admit usually all the BKA on wear pics are not clear and sharp enough to catch the details.
Maybe Karstjaeger's Prasch studio portrait could be enlarged from the source, Lubiana Museum, to let us understand what kind of badge he wore: if Junckers really existed Prasch would have been one of the first to receive it.

There was around a very huge BKA studio picture by Hofmann, but as far as I remember that was an AGMuK...anybody here have that image?

Upbeek may you please add something to yours concerns about the so called first type? I would be really interested to discuss about it.

Anyway I think Chris has a big knowledge about BKAs and I respect him.

Cheers
Tom

[upbeek]

here is what jorg said about the badge

[upbeek]

not sure what it says exactly but from i can make out the type shown in this thread is probably the same ,
weights and mesurements could prove otherwise,
jorg is not forced to be correct but i think he is ,
chay

[Ludwig]

Not a Juncker expert, by the way I have to say that among around 15 dug up BKA from my area there was no sign of Junckers, all were AGMuK.
I also need to say that I'm not noticed of any Junckers dug up BKA ever, and as far as I know I obtained infos about around 20/30 dug pieces found worldwide.
This doesn't mean nothing but I think could let us thinking about.
Also I couldn't find any picture of Juncker BKA on wear, even I have to admit usually all the BKA on wear pics are not clear and sharp enough to catch the details.
Maybe Karstjaeger's Prasch studio portrait could be enlarged from the source, Lubiana Museum, to let us understand what kind of badge he wore: if Junckers really existed Prasch would have been one of the first to receive it.

There was around a very huge BKA studio picture by Hofmann, but as far as I remember that was an AGMuK...anybody here have that image?

Upbeek may you please add something to yours concerns about the so called first type? I would be really interested to discuss about it.

Anyway I think Chris has a big knowledge about BKAs and I respect him.

Cheers
Tom

Massive APBs were produced during the war, no doubt of that.
The version with blued blade is massive and propably produced by Juncker. The quality is excellent, I can assure you!

[SScollector]

As I said before, I know the source of where my bronze Juncker badge
came from and that it is 100% original, not only because I have studied
these badges, but because of the source in which it came from.
Like I said, the gold badge is 100% identical to the bronze badge, (other than the mentioned details), and there is absolutely no question that they are made from the same dies.

I do claim to have learned lot about these badges, but in no way
would I ever say that I know everything. Die flaws from this set of dies,
yes, but not everything in general and I'm sure that there are plenty
of variations that I have not encountered and of course we all have a
lot to learn. In fact, there were probably other Juncker dies that were used that were totally different from these and if not, other manufactures that had different dies. I know of at least, one other original
solid back variation that is currently unknown and while similar to
the Juncker in some ways, but is quite different too.

Many people used to call me a self appointed know-it-all, in regard to
the metal SS cap insignias. Did this bother me or hurt my feelings? Nope.
Did it change anything at all? Nope. Do I still continue to share my knowledge with others freely and with confidence? Absolutely!

Anyway, I hope that we can move beyond all the bickering and continue with the research and perhaps eventually, we can find a way to get along. Have a nice week everyone and let's try to learn something.

Best,
Chris

[Tommaso]

Massive APBs were produced during the war, no doubt of that.
The version with blued blade is massive and propably produced by Juncker. The quality is excellent, I can assure you!

I've never said that Juncker massive badges were never produced, I've just stated that NO pictures clear enough exist or have been discovered, at the present time, to prove that badge was really produced and I'm also not noticed of any Juncker dug up badge (I've collected infos and pics about 20\30 dug up BKAs worldwide).
This is something you must keep in mind anyway.

And anyway the "Blue Sword" variant you talking about, along with the "Diamonds" badge, are 100% fake to me, since:
1)Standing to the legend seems KJ Kuhbandner had been awarded with that variant, but there is no picture of him wearing such a badgem even we have 3\4 pics of him with BKA shown.
2)There is no official documentation about this variant whatsoever: there were three grades existing, Gold, Silver, Bronze. Period.
3)This is the most important fact: you say the "Blue Sword", as the "Diamonds", is massive: infact both of them have a proper full back Jucker style.
The problem arises when you notice that both of them have anyway AGMuK fronts details and NOT Juncker ones....this couldn't been possible since when AGMuK started the production of 2nd pattern BKA with a complete new design, Juncker factories were no longer existing since they had been destroyed by Allied bombers and the dies went destroyed or missing anyway.

As you can see, front details are 100% AGMuK (even the bright paint is totally wrong...).

Cheers
T