MH CCC on Weitze's update

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Wonder what the thoughts are on the MH CCC on Weitze's update this afternoon. These have been floating around for a while and seems they are starting to pop up more and more. Thoughts anyone?

Tom

[Don D.]

I've always thought they were fake. Of course you could say that if they were fake why don't we see more of them...

[deejay]

These are so rare, so little is known of them. I have only one picture of the clasp in silver just like Weitze's CCC and I have been collecting pictures of all types for about 12 years now.

Herr Weitze states it also is a "Buntmetal" variant, it does now seem to puzzel me as many people on this forum state there was never any Buntmetal CCC version made. Something I am not convinced of btw.

Saying they are popping up more and more could actually mean there is a new copy flooding the market.

Anyway I don't have a good feeling about this MH one ... it's just a feeling.

[Ludwig]

I have seen exactly that kind of CCC, but without mm and with a small hook at the back!!! Nicely worn and all. 100% fake if you ask me.

[fugpaw]

There's only one way I can put it "not for my collection" - they're too bloddy dodgy!

Mike

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the replies. When I first saw one of these a few years ago, my hunch was the same as yours.....fake. Then I handled one at the SOS 2 years ago and felt it confirmed by suspicion that they were fake, the quality of the obverse design was poor, but the reverse setup was believeable and the base metal was acutally of a higher quality than used with wartime CCCs. Then, Frank found some PABs marked for MH and was pretty convinced they were originals. He was planning on featuring them in his PAB book, and he felt pretty comfortable with them. That made me start to think hard about my thoughts of these being fake. Also, like Don stated, if these were fakes, why wouldn't we see more of them.

Despite all this, these MH CCCs are 100% fake. No more quessing about these as I discovered something very funny as I was researching the book. The obverse design as well as the reverse die used to make the MH fake is the same that can be found with the much more common FLL fake that has been floating around for years. Same crappy obverse strike, same base material, same reverse die characteristics, same fake back-plate crimping, the only difference is the marking on the reverse. The MH CCC is from the same neferious characters who are making the FLL fake AND the F&BL fake.....all sharing the same dies and tools.

See the following comparison. Firstly, I'll post the MH CCC. Its not the one from Weitze's site, but a similar one found on another site recently.

[Thomas Durante]

Reverse

[Thomas Durante]

Closeup of the obverse.

[Thomas Durante]

Notice these pecular cut marks on the obverse. Also note the unique eagle featured on the MH CCC. It is a unique design, not used by any original CCC maker.

[Thomas Durante]

Now here is the obverse of the fake FLL CCC that is pretty common.

[Thomas Durante]

Closeup of the obverse. Compare this to the MH obverse in post #9, same type of cut marks in the same locations. Even the cut marks across the acorns are similar. The obverse is not an identical match, but very, very close and no doubt made by the same fakers and by the same process.

[Thomas Durante]

The reverse of the fake FLL CCC. Note the same die characteristics at the bottom of the back-plate area, much thicker on the left side than on the right side. This is exactly the same as found on the MH CCC and the same exact die was used (only chaning the maker mark up). Also note the long thin idented crimps used on both fakes.

[Thomas Durante]

As far as the base metal goes, these are made from a high quality alloy, much like tombak. Its for this that many collectors get burned by these fakes because they are truly made with a higher quality metal than originals. Deejay, we have period documentation from 1944 that recommends the CCC in silver be made of nickel silver and that the CCC in gold be made from tombak. This is almost 2 full years after the CCC was introduced, so it can be infurred that up until that point in the war, CCCs were being made in something of lesser quality......like zinc. This is confirmed in the CCCs we collect today as they are all zinc except for the special presentation CCC in Gold. While the possibility exists that this recommendation was followed to some extent by a few manufacturers and that a truly tombak or nickel silver CCC may exist somewhere, IMO this recommendation came too late in the war and was probably not disseminated to the various manufacturers before the war ended. No tombak or nickel silver CCC has ever been found to my knowledge. Every single CCC out there is zinc, with the exception of GWL, who made a limited supply from aluminum and then ofcourse the special golden CCC. Its possible one might turn up one day, but this is certainly the exception and would have to be scrutinized heavily for authenticity.

Tom

[Robert P.]

Excellent work Tom,

Thank you for your research! They all lead to the same mud puddle. Amazing.

Robert

[Hans N]

Here is a fake F&BL to compare with