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**John T** · 06-02-2003, 04:56 PM

2

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**John T** · 06-02-2003, 04:58 PM

picture three, the finish on this piece rates about 90 percent, I think it is the first flat back PAB I have seen, I put a ruler to the black and not even a slight scoop inward, John

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**John T** · 06-02-2003, 05:00 PM

four

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**mads** · 06-02-2003, 05:01 PM

IMO this looks liek a cast fake, but that is just my opinion.

Mads

**John T** · 06-02-2003, 05:02 PM

remnants of the packet....usually the vets through out these remnants, not this time, sadly what is left is all in pieces..at any rate a nice study...John

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**John T** · 06-02-2003, 05:10 PM

Cast fake? What do you other guys think? I know original wartime pieces were die struck or cast, this piece does not seem to have the characteristics of a cast repro, what do you other guys think, I am hear to learn, John

**Chet Sowersby** · 06-02-2003, 05:26 PM

John, I think that it is a fake also. Considering the amount of finish that is left, the definition of the badge should be clearer. There is no "sharpness" to the details on the obverse. I do not know if it is a cast piece or not. I just know that I would not have it in my collection.

**John T** · 06-02-2003, 05:34 PM

Thanks guys for the information...I guess the saying is true...there is a sucker born every minute, sometimes you win sometimes you lose, there were a few things I liked about the piece, the bubbling to the finish, the honest corrosion to the zinc where it came through the silvered finish in places, the lack of any chemical aging agent presence, overall sharpness of the detals and strong sheer marks from when the planchet was either cut or finished--oddly enough the fellow that sold me the piece had told me that to him if he saw it at a show he would think it fake, ie too new looking but that it was a vet buy made by him and that he was thinning it out of his collection, it looks like he lied...I always thought the fake flat backed pieces were marked, but in the wrong places...

Bill, I checked pix of the flat back FLL, and this piece does not match, but thanks for offering to post pix...

John

**Brian C.** · 06-02-2003, 06:44 PM

I may have the bronze version of this same badge. It is also unmarked and has the same type hinge setup. It was a Detlev purchase about two years ago.

**Brian C.** · 06-02-2003, 06:45 PM

Back

**John T** · 06-02-2003, 07:11 PM

Brian:

Thank you very much for those pictures!! I have compared them with my badge, and have to say the two are from the same die.
Also, the reverse assembly is identical.

Seeing as to how you bought this from Detlev and I greatly respect his knowledge, I feel safe now that my piece is 100 percent correct as it matches up with the Detlev piece...or we could conclude that Detlev sold you a fake piece, and the fellow that I got my piece from lied about getting it from the vet...

Does anybody have any further info on these badges that could be added to the discussion?

John

**Joseph D'Errico** · 06-02-2003, 08:05 PM

Hello John,

I think that if you look closer at your example as the one posted by Brian C. that you will notice that they did not come from the same die. If you look at the reverse of your example at about 7' oclock you can clearly see cast marks, meaning the piece was die forged from a die made from an original mold. Also the lack of detail to the obverse, while thier are hues of what one would expect to see from a cast repothey just don't make the mark zinc or otherwise. IMHO think that the example posted is a cast piece from an mold made using an original badge. I think if you look at your example with a 10X loop you may find poc marks as well, but those are definaly cast marks typical of repos on the reverese of your example.

Best Regards,
JD

**John T** · 06-02-2003, 09:19 PM

Hi Joseph, you made some good observations. I think from the photo I took it appears my piece may have a lack of detail, but that may be due to the photo quality, the details are actually sharp and crisp. If I had a measurement tool to post the exact measurements of my piece I would so that it could be compared to the previous piece. If my piece is a cast copy would the fakers have gotten the hinge and the catch and pin correct also? And why would they go to the trouble of copying an unmarked panzer badge when it seems that many collectors want marked pieces...ie look at the HA copies... These seem to be the same. Also from what I understand of original production techniques, die stamping, die striking and die forging (cast) were used on pieces. If I am incorrect about this please let me know. There are pock marks on the reverse of the piece, but not what you would see on a low quality casting. If my piece is indeed a copy...it would have to be a "high tech" copy as they got the reverse pin assembly correct, and if it is such a high tech copy that to me would indicate that it would be something made recently, ie the last 15 years and as such would not more such pieces be extant?

From my experience with better copies, I have noted that they are made from a better quality material than the originals...for example look at the U-boat close combat clasps by Schwerin...the originals are zinc based and the copies are a brass like quality metal, ie better than the originals...on the other hand my piece seems to be made from zinc...of course there are probably fakes being made from zinc or even some other modern alloy that resembles it...so maybe that could be the case here.

I am not disputing anything that you have said (ie I am not one of those guys that refuses to accept that anything that he has is a copy), I am just trying to learn myself and I am ready to accept that my piece may be a copy. Thank you,

John

**Joseph D'Errico** · 06-02-2003, 09:44 PM

Hello John,

The answer to most of your questions is "yes" the repos do use good componets as well as bad ones. The word repo does not mean a badge is of low quality and sloppy workmanship. It simply meandns that the piece is not original by the standard war time pieces. The reverse of your example clearly shows cast marks from a die that was forged from an original piece, but not forged from an orginal die, That is what those marks are on the reverse good scans or bad, they are what they are. I know what you mean, I have a flatback Bronze that is textbook evrything, BUT the metal is no known metal, I think it is made from steel. I laso have a couple of other pieces that are high end repos that are almost on the mark and had me believing that they were the real deal for quite some time.

In reference to good fakes only being made as of late, well, you will find that very good fakes were being made right after the war.

If your example were an original piece I would expect all or some to have the same charateristics of the reverse as yours, but this is only seen on repos.

Cordially Yours,
JD

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