Interesting the second table of pics too.
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Misters, i think what in this years we must study the history correlated to the pieces what we want put in collection, unlucky if this studies was doing some dozens of years ago not was problems on original pieces or re-made pieces, now too much time is it go on and we not have lot of real testimoniances about productors, dies, conferiments, used pieces, units employeed in the antipartisan fightings etc..
IMO i think too much collectors are too much optimist about the real use of this kind of badge, (i other branch of militaria collection can be the same),
2) Unlucky the 90% in the collections are the AGMuk model not Junker
Not unlucky, just that AGMuK made most of them since Juncker was bombed out.
Of course but where are all Junckers models? Lost in combat? Brake? In common cemetery with the proprietor?
4) Total conferiments during the war is it stimate in 1700 pieces registred, probably that not registred are circa 4-500 pieces for a total of 2100- 2200, my IMO is what during the war not was produced more of 3000 pieces because the end was near and i think nobody can hope in the spring of 1945 about a good end of the war for the Axis forces.
Where are these conferment lists? Why would such a list be made when no other badge nor even EK lists were made?
We are here for talk about it and have a right idea about this badge and if is it possible give a real wiev about the BAK.
All we are here for know every new data about this is it important.
With this incontrovertible facts now we can think about the large numbers in the collections,
Not facts but speculation
No speculation is it statistic science, whit this numbers we must talk about a very large production of BAK, i don't think what is it a good message for the collectors say what this is it a common badge, like non is it good say what every one to sell can be good. At this point lot of originals conferiment papers must be in circolation like the badges, but this not is it real
The statistic science don't lie! There are too much survive badges in the collection in relation at that real conferited.
You need the production data, not confermation data to make this comparision
I talk about all the pieces made, there are too much survive for a no big production, in comparation the X******176;Mas schields what was made in circa 15000 pieces in all the world are survive probably circa 500 or little more pieces. 15000 pieces are a quite big production for a badge.
In OZAK area was found 5-7 pieces from battlefield
(what types were they, Gablonzer or Juncker?),
For the moment 3-4 pieces are AGMuk model the athers i see only in pic and are fragmentary pieces.
lot of this i think in a common cemetery contest the others hiddens or lost, in fact at the end of the war this not was a good badeg to have on the breast, lot of soldiers what have this badges probably have a violent die in the last dais of the war.
Whit this numbers are impossible what in every collection there are 3-4 BAK, alls of the AGMuk model, and the Junkers where are?
Someone says what the GI come back to USA with loads of this badges but when? in the May of the 1945 or in the May of the 1946-47-48-49 etc etc.. (allied forces stay in Triest untill the 1954 ).
IMO is it what after the war the dies af AGMuk are survive, (not the dies of the Junker destroyed over a bombardament) and someone think to go on with the production of this rare and apprecied badge from the allied occupation troops in Germany with right dies and with the same metal. You can say this about every manufacturer in the western zones of occupation IMHO.
I doubt if the Soviets would have let this type activity go on. AGMuK was in the Soviet zone of Occupation even though it was liberated/conquered by the US Army. The Germanic peoples were forced to evacuate with what they could carry on there backs. Do you think they took thier dies for awards from a now defunct regime with them or perhaps personal possessions and things they would need to survive?
With the same your opinion i can think: why lot of never used badges come to Gablonz a/d Niesse (Jablonec nad Nisou, Sudeten) in the occidental world when at the time Gablonz was on the Soviet occupation and now that badges are in the collection of all the world? and lot of this in the USA collection? A GI never stay in Gablonz at the end of the war? Who say what the people have only the little things for survive? Not my opinion, At the time was every kind of people who have lot of things who have nothing (of couse more of this). Perhaps lot of pieces was in the depots around all Germany of the end of the war? For give that badges at what troops when the war on the west front was into the german territory? My fear is it what the dies of AGMuk survive and product this badges after the end of the war, perhaps in a new place, if you collect german bagdes you know what from the Souval of Wien come lot of repros of german badges made untill the 60 and 70 years. for the BAK can't be the same thing for nostalgic soldiers or for souvenir sells? Is it a beatiful badge for the occupation troops. Why in the west of the world there are lot of and in the East no? They must be more common in the east!!
At this point we talk about original pieces but made after the end of the war what never have to see with that conferited during the war.
All BAK badges are in new condition, like never used no splits, no damages only the lost of the color of the grade for problems related to the metal of support.
Produced but not issued badges tend to be in mint condition
Of Couse a good piece never used with a good conservation tent to converve his contition, my write is it in relation to the fact about the percentual of real used badges to the new badges in the collection of the world! So in every case if that was made during the war or after we talk about never used badges, IMO for my simple opinion lot of that not are war made pieces.
If this is real nobody in the world can distinguish a war made BAK badge in good condition with another made in the years after the war.
With this, the point is it the price: perhaps we are all silly collectors because if this badge (AGMuk model) not are rare like we think and that are common in the collections of the world, so i'm authorizeted to think what thousands of $ for this badge are moneys give at the wind!!
All these badges are speculation and the collector must study them before making that leap of faith by spending his hard earned money.
Every collector know how much spend for his collection but not are right say what all BAK badges must be have the quotation of thousand $, because no one in the world can say what that piece is it a real piece made and use in the war era.
So we are here for study this decoration, because too much leggends are born about it, is it right what every collector must study the piece very well before the buy of the wanted piece!!Last edited by Lafitte; 07-01-2007, 08:50 AM.Comment
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ok take a look at the estand theres a gold CCC for sale there,now there was no more then about 700 issued and again himmler or even hitler would present it the new winner! yet i see plently for sale on the estand each year(well when i say plently i mean say about 4/5 a year!) yet if we were simply to go by your logic(im not tring to be smart or anything) then we simply shouldnt be seeing ANY gold CCC but yet we do see them! reason? a lot more were made then were awarded and this goes for the partizan badge to! it simple does not make sense for a large company like junkers or AGMuk to make dies for this badge make say 5000 badge and then never do any series of run again!! that would cost them a huge amount of time and money!!! also just because you only have found 5 or 6 anti partizan badges dug up means nothing! you can apply that thinking to the RK then!!and theres tons of perfectly real ons for sale! they were made in large batch runs so that when they were needed they were on hand and this goes for every combat award!!Comment
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by the way i dont think there was list for the gold CCC either and alot less were awarded then the partizan badge!Comment
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A CCC in gold winners list does exist. it is not complete but it is permanently updated by M. Dörr, author of a book and articles on that topic.Originally posted by paddywhack View Post
jacquesComment
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i stand corrected! thanks for that!how many many are on the list?Comment
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Yes Paddy, i understand what you want say, i know what there are more badges in relation at that confered but for my opinion we don't can talk about a big ammount of production of BAK. At this dais we don't know the real situation of the production of 60 and more years ago, we don't have the number cof the lot commisioned and we can't do a real recostruction of the situation at the time.
Of couse 10 pieces from battlefield don't doing the history but for sure that are the only real used an cenfered in the last months of the war.
In the same time we can think what lot of dies for german badges are survive at the war, in Italy was the same with the dies of some rarest RSI badges and schields with the difference about the political climate in Italy in the years after the war, when all the things of RSI Army was destoyed from squads created for this reason. In some cases some of this dies made new bagdges at our dais too, (not are big problem beacause the material are quite differents from the past) for other badges, contrary, exist in only few pieces knows (4-5).
Say this in consideration of the big interest around the german badges ( more than respect at the italian militaria) from occupation troops before and from collectors after, i think what at the our dais a good collector must be very critical about a badge in very good conditions on the stands.
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I just have the first edition of his book, and I think (those who own the book can correct me) that in the second edition the list approach 700 names. They are described with datas, units, etc.. and sometimes a picture.Originally posted by paddywhack View Post
jacquesComment
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i still dont understand why you think they couldnt produce large amount of this type of badge! its like any other badge! there wasnt some mythical aura surrounding it that made the companies that made this badge only produce very small runs of them! its was an order for a badge from the army and the compnay wanted to made money so therefore they produced them in large volumes!!it makes sense i think why the company that made them produced them in more numbers then were at that time needed!
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thanks! so if we go by what has been said on this thread there should maybe be ONLY 700 or so gold CCCs out in the world for us collectors!but theres far more out there!Originally posted by jacques View Post
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Every Divisional supply depot would have had some sitting on the shelves right next to all those RKs, DKiGs, CCCs etc...pseudo-expertComment
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Man, 11 badges are not 100.000....Originally posted by paddywhack View Post
You haven't proved a thing with that link, just that a GI brought back 11 BKA.
Still waiting for a period picture of the huge amounts (not e-l-e-v-e-n) of BKA you telling about...
Cheers
TLast edited by Drapeau Noir; 07-02-2007, 06:47 AM.Comment
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You posted 22 pictures ( infact I said more or less 20 but you can also prove me the existence of 50 pictures, my mind do not change about that)... I can show you more if needed.Originally posted by jacques View Post
But maybe you did not realize two important thing:
1)Almost ten were taken in the OZAK area....
Pic9: SS-Ostuf. Helmut Prasch - SD Aussenkommando Pola OZAK and later SS-Karstjager in OZAK.
Pic.10: SS-Ostuf. Erich Kuehbandner SS-Karstjager in OZAK
Pic.12 to 14:SS-Ostuf. Oswin Merwald - Karstjager Div. may 1945 in Dogna/OZAK.
Pic.19: Erwin Roesener HSSPF Laibach/OZAK
Pic. 22: Polizeisten unknow, the picture came from Laibach's History Museum, then...
Pic.24: A Cossak...maybe not in OZAK but in Northern Balkans for sure.
2)Few pictures belongs to the same person...
Pic.12 to 14
Pic.25 to 26: Erich von dem Bach-Zelweski
It doesnt ring a bell to you?
Of thousands and thousands of badges just few pictures and most important quite always from the same area and about the same awarded guy..
Maths are not an opinion, just my two cents anyway.Last edited by Drapeau Noir; 07-02-2007, 07:12 AM.Comment
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We worked hard about the list of BKA awardings togheter with the guys of the Axis Forum: at the moment we have a couple of hundreds of names.
I can also tell you that the SS-Karstjager Division have higher number of BKA(all grades) and BKAg awardings followed by few others units for example the SS-Pol.Rgt."Schlanders".
Most from the same area (OZAK/OZAV) and most have fought in the same area.
We know why and we can then say with a correct level of knowledge, a very big number of these badges were awarded in that exactly area.
First bell: most of the known pictures, most of the known awardings, most of the units awarded came from the same area, OZAK and OZAV.
We are noticed of 7-10 BKA dug up badges from that area and we can say around, I dont know, 50 existing period pictures?
then if you work a little bit about % you can find out something interesting.
Put that we find dug out badges for just 4% the total produced : then we can say a europewide range of 80 dug up? It seems to me quite honest.
Then 80 is 4% of 2000...
And again: we can say the known pictures are the 2% of the real awarded badges?
Again it looks quite correct to me standing to the fact that the original pictures are much more rare than the actual badge.
Then again we can put 50 existing period pictures with BKA depicted: 50 is 2% of 2500...
Then again I can give you a quite honest numeber of real awardings between 2000 and 3000, ok let's put 4000.
But again I cant allow numbers of 10000 and 10000 just because "it was cheaper"...: there was a quite huge scarsity of materials in 44/45 then I can't agree since the production costs doesn't match a thing with waste of materials.
I really can't belive the TR military production offices weren't noticed about the meaning of that badge, I can't belive they did not made a "poll" just to have a minimum clue of how many badges they would need to produce (I mean like a SA-sportabzeichen then 5milions badges or like a Blockade Runner badges then 5000 or whatever).
I would like to ask you one think actually:
Were the Knight Crosses produced in milions and milions?
Then we can also assert that there are still around nowadays hundreds of thousands K.C. unissued waiting for us?
Then why we need to pay 12k for a Knight Cross?
Then why, if thousands and thousands of unissued BKA were produced and survived the war it is so hard for any of us to find out an original one (more than any other badge)?
Why we have so many good copies , why it's so hard to understand which one is good and which one is a copy?
At the end of the days, we should have "tons and tons" of BKA around left in the warehouses as we have for the EKII or the NSDAP party pin
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Cheers
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For sue you can share other photos showing this badge worn. It is really interesting.
jacquesComment
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