Anti Partisan Badge in silver

[Don D.]

As far as I know the BKA were produced my manifacturers AGMuK on request from RF-SS on the number of awarding they needed, I really do not remember anyone to have seen any kind of depot or warhouse full of Bandenkampfabzeichen.
Say that there were produced tons of extra BKA is just pure speculation to my opinion and would help fakers.

CCC in gold is not even the same thing of BKA if you know how and why they were awarded (Himmler reserved for himself the awarding of all the gold BKA): actually any Heer/Polizei/SS/Luftwaffe soldier on any front would have been awarded with CCC but just few units were employed in antipartisan actions and this is the reason why the BKA was a rarely awarded badge.
Do you have any vet source that could confirm that GI went back with helmets filled up with BKA?
And if positive, have you got any picture of this sea of BKA?
Would you please tell me the number of total CCC awardings? Is it lower than BKA?
And then again, the BKA is considered one of the most rare badges around, why the CCC is not?
You can find several period pictures with the CCC shown, but you won't find easily a BKA one.
I strongly belive the BKA produced in total were no more than 2000-2500.


Cheers
T

Your figures for production are pure speculation. No army produces or orders the production of exactly what they need. Items are ordered by lots of thousands. There is documentation demonstrating this for other badges. The BKA would be no different. As for photos of the BKA in wear we have seen numerous threads on them so they exist. The BKA was a late war badge when most german soldiers were not able to get film for thier cameras anymore when compared to the early years. This is not to say that these badges were not continued to be produced after the war for the GI market. I'm sure they were.

I just find it odd that you can develop a production figure. I've seen other odd production figures thrown around for other badges also. There was a german site that said only 20000 PABs were awarded throughout the war. At 5 men per tank crew that is 5000 tanks elligible. The germans produced how many tanks throuhout the war? How many men were assigned to crews? How many must have earned thier PAB just for the battle of France in 1940? How many more in the opening days of Barbarossa? How many PABs did each man go though over the years? Apply this formula to every other award. Now how many awards were destroyed in bombing attacks, lost in over run supply depots etc...? The CCC in bronze was basically handed out to every guy that had been on the Eastern Front for 18 months when it was first instituted. What was the production figue for that? Look at the number of manufacturers. If you only needed a few why would so many companies be tasked to make them? Even the BKA was made by a conglomerate of several companies.

Just some rambling thoughts on production vs awarded numbers.

[Tommaso]

Don,
I've seen somewhere pictures with huge amounts of Eiserne Kreuz I and other TR badges.
I've never seen any picture depicting such event for BKA.
Have you ever heard about huge amount of BKA found by GI?
Have you ever heard about huge warehouse of BKA never awarded?
Would you please prove me the BKA was ordered in amount of "thousands and thousands"?
Are you sure of what you have said?
Thousands produced and just little bit more then 1000 awarded? what a waste of material, dont you think so?

Yes, I've seen period BKA pics, I have a copy of any of them I could find around, I also own one: if there are more than 20+/- pictures around I can offer you a beer...
As far as I know at the moment the only existing picture which depicts an un-awarded BKA is the frame from Mariano Comense Italian SS video: there are shown 3 BKA among 30+/- EK and other badges.

Mine is not just speculation, I call it "keep your eyes open": nowadays every collector on this planet assert to have from one to 4 and more genuine BKA...
This can't be real: I know, you know.

Stg44 is also a late war weapon and it was quite rare, but you can find plenty of pictures depicting them....Panzerfaust is another late war weapon...as many late war items I could say.
Came on: would you try to tell me that this issue is related just to the reduced use of the cameras?
I dont think so.
BKA is a very rare badge, so picture evidence is quite hard to find out.

I'm working hard since few years on a BKA recipients list and my opinion is that there were not such a huge amounts of BKA ready to be awarded, I think the companies were asked to made a certain number, 100-1000, every time they were needed and not before.
And anyway knowing that the number of awarded would haven't been so high I would say they were asked to produce not too many exceeding badges even due the smallness of first materials like metal and iron leagues in 1944/45.
But if you are able to provide with pictures depiting the existence of such big masses of BKA I will shout my mouth forever.

I'm also into the metaldetectoring in an area where were awarded the most of these badges and I can asure you that's is quite hard to find out a BKA: I'm noticed at the moment of around 10/15 (7 from my area) dig out BKA worldwide and due to that, throu a calculation that I think should be quite correct, I would say that there werent produced more than 2000-2500 max 3000 badges.

If you have any other source to clear the things up about this theme please post them here: I would be very interested in any document regarding that badge production if in your possession or if still existing.

Thanks
T

[Don D.]

I can only speculate as you have as to the number produced. I can correlate production numbers based upon other TR award production runs. If EK2s and wound badges were ordered in lots of 50000 plus than I don't see why the BKA wasn't ordered bt the 1-10000 lot. As for photos, most of the stugs and other armor you see are either press fotos or such. Tanks made better coverage than a mere badge IMO. If you look at foto albums from the war you see a sharp decline in the number of pics as the war went on. Why do you think that was? Now if you have the written production data from Gablonz or even Juncker than please post it. Otherwise you are only guessing, as am I.

[Tommaso]

Don,

As told you you cannot compare the standards for production of EKII with BKA, no way to me.
You did not take in consideration one thing:
starting from the beginning the Reichsfuhrer-SS already knew that the badge would have been awarded in very particular and few cases: the Bandenbekaempfung was an extremely violent and hard war, the units employeed in that war were very few if compared with the number of units employeed at the front and in other contests: not too many members of these antipartisan units had the luck to survive.
This is the reason why all the Bandenkampf related items are so rare to find out and why they are so resquested.
You must also remember that the badge wasn't awarded on any front and in any case, but just on the territories "infected" by partisans and in relation to antipartisan operation: then again you cannot compare a badge awarded on all over the fronts (like the EKII) with a badge awarded just in few particular cases.
Then, standing to that, why waste so much materials to produce 10'000 during a very dark period for the german economy, if you can imagine, as every proper War Ministery offices need to know, who commissioned the production already knew that they were going to award no more then 2-3-4000 badges?

The number of badge producted is directly proportional to the number of pictures from the time which depict them: so very low in my opinion.

PS-even in 1944 there were more single soldiers photo portraits than tanks or weapon pictures: every each of them soldiers use to have 1-2-3 or more portraits but again the known pictures depicting the BKA are very very few..

Just my two cents, by the way.

[paddywhack]

Don,

As told you you cannot compare the standards for production of EKII with BKA, no way to me.
You did not take in consideration one thing:
starting from the beginning the Reichsfuhrer-SS already knew that the badge would have been awarded in very particular and few cases: the Bandenbekaempfung was an extremely violent and hard war, the units employeed in that war were very few if compared with the number of units employeed at the front and in other contests: not too many members of these antipartisan units had the luck to survive.
This is the reason why all the Bandenkampf related items are so rare to find out and why they are so resquested.
You must also remember that the badge wasn't awarded on any front and in any case, but just on the territories "infected" by partisans and in relation to antipartisan operation: then again you cannot compare a badge awarded on all over the fronts (like the EKII) with a badge awarded just in few particular cases.
Then, standing to that, why waste so much materials to produce 10'000 during a very dark period for the german economy, if you can imagine, as every proper War Ministery offices need to know, who commissioned the production already knew that they were going to award no more then 2-3-4000 badges?

The number of badge producted is directly proportional to the number of pictures from the time which depict them: so very low in my opinion.

PS-even in 1944 there were more single soldiers photo portraits than tanks or weapon pictures: every each of them soldiers use to have 1-2-3 or more portraits but again the known pictures depicting the BKA are very very few..

Just my two cents, by the way.

check this thread out

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=Anti+Partisan

[paddywhack]

also the reason i think loads were produce was becuase quite simply is its cheaper to do that! why spend loads on dies tooling etc only to produce 2000? not going to happen! the ccc in gold had loads produced! i heard a figure of a mere 700 awarded!! but theres tons more then that produced!!!

[wh014d4394]

also the reason i think loads were produce was becuase quite simply is its cheaper to do that! why spend loads on dies tooling etc only to produce 2000? not going to happen! the ccc in gold had loads produced! i heard a figure of a mere 700 awarded!! but theres tons more then that produced!!!

i second that. your spot on

[Lafitte]

Hallo all!!
Every one can have his idea, i have one onother can be a different from the my.
Reality is this.

1) In every part of the world exist a BAK badge in the collections (incredible in every grade Br.- Ar.- Au.)

2) Unlucky the 90% in the collections are the AGMuk model not Junker

Now we can think about this:

3)In the my zone was the 24° WSS Division Karstjager have the more big number of conferiments in total and in gold too, first in gold of the war was conferited in Tolmezzo (OZAK) during the 1944.

4) Total conferiments during the war is it stimate in 1700 pieces registred, probably that not registred are circa 4-500 pieces for a total of 2100- 2200, my IMO is what during the war not was produced more of 3000 pieces because the end was near and i think nobody can hope in the spring of 1945 about a good end of the war for the Axis forces.

With this incontrovertible facts now we can think about the large numbers in the collections,

The statistic science don't lie! There are too much survive badges in the collection in relation at that real conferited.
In OZAK area was found 5-7 pieces from battlefield, lot of this i think in a common cemetery contest the others hiddens or lost, in fact at the end of the war this not was a good badeg to have on the breast, lot of soldiers what have this badges probably have a violent die in the last dais of the war.

Whit this numbers are impossible what in every collection there are 3-4 BAK, alls of the AGMuk model, and the Junkers where are?

Someone says what the GI come back to USA with loads of this badges but when? in the May of the 1945 or in the May of the 1946-47-48-49 etc etc.. (allied forces stay in Triest untill the 1954 ).
IMO is it what after the war the dies af AGMuk are survive, (not the dies of the Junker destroyed over a bombardament) and someone think to go on with the production of this rare and apprecied badge from the allied occupation troops in Germany with right dies and with the same metal.

At this point we talk about original pieces but made after the end of the war what never have to see with that conferited during the war.
All BAK badges are in new condition, like never used no splits, no damages only the lost of the color of the grade for problems related to the metal of support.

If this is real nobody in the world can distinguish a war made BAK badge in good condition with another made in the years after the war.
With this, the point is it the price: perhaps we are all silly collectors because if this badge (AGMuk model) not are rare like we think and that are common in the collections of the world, so i'm authorizeted to think what thousands of $ for this badge are moneys give at the wind!!

[paddywhack]

er the one on this thread actuly has been repaired!!!!!but if you read my post what im saying is that junkers etc would NOT make dies for the badge and then just only do a small batch of maybe 5000 look at all the unissued ek 1st!! they need lot of work and yet there is loads of unissed perioed ww2 ones!!!same thing with this badge,they would have made thousands of them and then as needed ship em out!

[Raytheman]

This is a very interesting thread.
I don't know much about but I do not think shortage of material was really an issue; How many badges can you make with the material equivalent to one FLAK88 barrel? Exactly; thousands :-)
one badge = about 30 gramms, so with 100 kilograms you can make almost 3500 badges..

@ Drapeau Noir;
"I will shout my mouth forever" - please don't-

just my two cents :-)

[Don D.]

The Germans were producing everything until the end. To have stopped would have been admitting defeat. Zink was not a critical war material whereas you could argue that awards and badges were. You have to keep the morale of the troops up and one way to do it is to hand out awards. It is a fact that more awards are handed out during disasterous operations than during successful ones. Heck, they were handing out EKs like a PEZ dispenser. (same thing occurred during WW1) If you know anything about a military supply system you will know that each organization has an authorized unit of issue for everything from socks thru bullets to awards. These are items that must be kept in stock until issued and then replaced.

[Don D.]

My comments to yours.

2) Unlucky the 90% in the collections are the AGMuk model not Junker
Not unlucky, just that AGMuK made most of them since Juncker was bombed out.

4) Total conferiments during the war is it stimate in 1700 pieces registred, probably that not registred are circa 4-500 pieces for a total of 2100- 2200, my IMO is what during the war not was produced more of 3000 pieces because the end was near and i think nobody can hope in the spring of 1945 about a good end of the war for the Axis forces.
Where are these conferment lists? Why would such a list be made when no other badge nor even EK lists were made?

With this incontrovertible facts now we can think about the large numbers in the collections, Not facts but speculation

The statistic science don't lie! There are too much survive badges in the collection in relation at that real conferited. You need the production data, not confermation data to make this comparision

In OZAK area was found 5-7 pieces from battlefield (what types were they, Gablonzer or Juncker?), lot of this i think in a common cemetery contest the others hiddens or lost, in fact at the end of the war this not was a good badeg to have on the breast, lot of soldiers what have this badges probably have a violent die in the last dais of the war.

Whit this numbers are impossible what in every collection there are 3-4 BAK, alls of the AGMuk model, and the Junkers where are?

Someone says what the GI come back to USA with loads of this badges but when? in the May of the 1945 or in the May of the 1946-47-48-49 etc etc.. (allied forces stay in Triest untill the 1954 ).
IMO is it what after the war the dies af AGMuk are survive, (not the dies of the Junker destroyed over a bombardament) and someone think to go on with the production of this rare and apprecied badge from the allied occupation troops in Germany with right dies and with the same metal. You can say this about every manufacturer in the western zones of occupation IMHO. I doubt if the Soviets would have let this type activity go on. AGMuK was in the Soviet zone of Occupation even though it was liberated/conquered by the US Army. The Germanic peoples were forced to evacuate with what they could carry on there backs. Do you think they took thier dies for awards from a now defunct regime with them or perhaps personal possessions and things they would need to survive?

At this point we talk about original pieces but made after the end of the war what never have to see with that conferited during the war.
All BAK badges are in new condition, like never used no splits, no damages only the lost of the color of the grade for problems related to the metal of support. Produced but not issued badges tend to be in mint condition

If this is real nobody in the world can distinguish a war made BAK badge in good condition with another made in the years after the war.
With this, the point is it the price: perhaps we are all silly collectors because if this badge (AGMuk model) not are rare like we think and that are common in the collections of the world, so i'm authorizeted to think what thousands of $ for this badge are moneys give at the wind!! All these badges are speculation and the collector must study them before making that leap of faith by spending his hard earned money.

[jacques]

Considering the large number of troops envolved against "partisanenkampf" (Army regular troops, Polizei, Waffen SS, LW, KM, foreign units, Kosaken), I doubt that so few (2000-3000) were awarded. The production was surely wide. I know more than 20 pics and I lost part of my files.
Of course it is a rare badge, but I got a witness from a former RK träger who got it in bronze: he was not proud of this badge he won in Italy, and never worn it. When he was taken prisonner in 45, the badge entry in his solbuch tended to cost him the life. This is certainly the reason why not so many pics exist but it doesn't mean that so few were awarded.
just my 2 cents

jacques

[jacques]

Few more picked up on various books and forums.

[Lafitte]

Hallo Jacques, i know too another pic with badges on.
Of the your firsts 16 post now 7 pic was made was in OZAK zone, 4 pics are of the same officer during the tractative with the Allied forces near a little village in the mountains.
Others of Polizei someone probably was of Regiment Bozen in OZAK too.