Are we being a bit Paranoid

[Lemm]

Hi Guys,

I have been collecting german war badges, documents etc now on and off
for 11 years. My collection of 3R war badges is not extensive but not too bad...it would have been much larger had I not been forced into bailing out of the hobby for a year or so and selling my collection due to financial problems. I am not an devouted Wehrmacht Awards forum user by any means but I do occasionally have a bit of a look at threads which take my interest.
Over the years I have seen a growing number of members/collectors giving badges the thumbs down which leads me to ask the question "are we being a bit paranoid" when it comes to collecting badges and medals. I am no expert thats for sure but I have asked a few people in the business how much it would cost to set up a die to accuratly reproduce anyone of the more basic German badges and the cost is pretty expensive. I cannot understand how anyone could expect to make money trying to pass off modern IABs for example knowing that to set up a die that is in anyway accurate and close to the original would be far to expensive an undertaking. I can see that duplicating any one of the high priced badges like eboat 1st pattern, anti partisan badges may pay off but again I doubt it.
I know there is a market for reproduction badges for re-enactors etc and I have seen these badges on various sites and as you guys know they could never pass off as the real thing nor were they intended to do so.

The one thing that amazes me about this forum and others is the knowledge that its members contain. For example you display a signature or photo of a German officer and nine times out of ten someone will be able to tell you who it is. I often wonder then whenever someone displays a badge that is given the thumbs down why no one seems to know who is making those badges or where they are coming from. Personally I would take offence if someone gave a badge of mine the thumbs down without at least telling me why and not because he or she saw so and so on another thread say it was. Such information from well meaning but not so well informed people only does damage in this hobby and spreads paranoia I feel.
I guess my question to you all is.......are there as many fake/reproduction badges out there as this forum makes out or are we giving the thumbs down to a slight variation of a known or unknown maker. Some of the reasons for binning badges I have seen hinge on some very minor things like a soft bit of detail here and there whereas I have seen collectors here proudly display badges that through die wear are missing large sections of detail. I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of these items but how can one item be ok but the other not.
Like all you guys I am keen to learn so I would like to hear other collectors opinions on the overall fake/reproduction subject especially those who know where these so called fakes are originating from.

Phil

[Ron Weinand]

I know how you feel Phil and, even though I have been in this hobby for over 50 years, I am sure that many of the badges that others ID as repros are indeed originals.
That being said, I also have been going to shows for over 40 years and have seen SEVERAL of the known dealers selling post war production items as originals.
This being said, I feel there is, indeed, a middle ground in all this declaration of good and bad. We know that some items tabbed as reproductions years ago have now been claimed to be original.
I don't know that we will ever reach a definitive conclusion, but I will be happy with my collection as others should be with theirs and take many of the positions stated on this and other forums with a grain of salt.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

[Lemm]

Yes Ron I tend to agree with you. I did remember reading a classic line in a thread on the anti partisan badge some years ago which had been written by a fellow on this forum who I regard as somewhat knowledgeable on the subject of badges. As you can imagine the thread was going nowhere fast (as they often seem to do) but in the end this chap simply stated....If you buy one of these badges and you are happy with it then thats all that matters....

Happy collecting

Phil

[chris clark]

i have found this sight to be very helpful on many aspects of my collection and yes i have caused a little stir with my memell medal as i know its history etc and its period. however some members believe its no good. i still stand by that it is and some of those that gave it thumbs down now agree that its accepted as period. so it can work both ways when you know you have a good item that stirs some of those that disbelieve when first posted on this sight.
again reasons given for thumbs down should be given so you know exactly why. it is good pratice however to research any item you have before posting as it can anoy some people when someone just keeps posting and not looking first. ( not saying you come into that catogory at all mt friend)

[VonLuger]

Great Way To Go Through Collecting Badgea Lemm - Ignorence Is Bliss

P.S. I Can Sell You some Badges that will make you HAPPY, maybe not resellable But Happy

[Lemm]

It didnt seem to take long but I already have a not so constructive response to what I think is a reasonable inquirey. Personally, I dont think ignorance is bliss at all which is why I posted this thread and thats the sort of response I was talking about. Maybe you should post some of these badges you are keen to sell to me and I will have a look at them especially if they are die struck IABs.....you bet I will be happy with them.


Phil

[mrg]

Hi Lemm like many others on this forum I have been a collector for many years, and have seen many changes in this hobby. Like Ron I always appreciated feedback from other members but the eventual descision always comes down to your own. However in regard to cost of dies etc you have to remember that the world of Militaria and collectables is expensive as well as a world wide hobby and so it is well worth any effort to produce these dies expecially in east europe and asia etc. I have come across fake medals as lowly priced as the West Wall and SA good detail, good colouration except made from lead would fool many a novice. The world wide market makes it profitable in these cheaper countries, so imagine the profit from the more expensive items. I agree that some of the awards etc that get discounted I myself can find nothing that cries out fake. Some awards however suddenly appear from nowhere and in abundance and should be questioned. You also have people like Floch and cottage industries knocking these out the latter in a drip feed like motion, then sell them on there stalls at 100% profit so you really cant just accept everthing, and yes it does make you paranoid . The reason some forum members just give the thumbs down is because you just do not no who is viewing these threads and the more information gathered the better the quality of fake. All the best

[Lemm]

Hi MRG...thanks for your input and I agree that there is a plethora of cheaply made lead or white metal copies out there but most if not all of them are cast and generally easy to spot as copies. Making a die to produce such cast copies is not expensive but to make a die to STAMP out badges is a different ball game especially hollow type badges where a male and female die has to be produced. These are the types of badges I am referring to and not the common cast type copies. I just cannot fathom that somebody would go to the cost and trouble to produce such expensive dies to make a badge that at most sells for $200 or thereabouts (IABs, GABS & PABs). The amount they would have to flood the market with to make the enterprise worthwhile is mind blowing. Maybe I am wrong but whenever I see such a badge given the thumbs down I would expect to see a lot more suddenly surface in the hands of collectors etc but this never seems to be the case.
Quite a few years ago I put a solid silver APB with a stamped 1 on the pin up for discussion on this forum and it was unanimously given the thumbs down. I expected this because I too didnt think it felt quite right but I have never ever seen another like it so if it is a fake I would have thought I would have at least seen a few others. Who would make one fake and believe me it was very, very well detailed and made from tombak like metal. JMO

Phil

[Marc Garlasco]

I think Frank has shown us enough proof with fake GABs to prove paranoia is warranted. This common badge is faked regularly, and so are more expensive RKs. If you have to pay a few thousand dollars for an RK die and could sell many many fakes for several thousands, well, I think many might.
Marc

[Don D.]

The cost is relative to the place where the work is being done. Look at other examples of forgeries out there. In the US we had a guy that faked $5 bills by hand. Only made a few his whole life. Why? Who knows what his motivation was. Another guy used the machines at work to fake millions of dollars in gambling tokens which have more security features than a TR badge ever will. Him and his wife almost got away with it too. All he did was use the machines available to him at work so other than putting in some overtime what did it cost him? Heck, I saw J. Floch yesterday at the DC show. He was telling someone that he could get him anything, just write down a list. It wasn't until I saw the dealer list that I realized who he was.
Bottomline is that as long as there is a market for this stuff people will fake it. We may be badge nazis here but at the end of the day how many questionable badges one has depends upon an individuals personal comfort level.

[Peter Wiking]

I just cannot fathom that somebody would go to the cost and trouble to produce such expensive dies to make a badge that at most sells for $200 or thereabouts (IABs, GABS & PABs). Phil

Have you heard about nations like: China, Pakistan or nations in Eastern Europe? You can manufacture anything for 1/3 of what it cost here (USA and Western Europe). A genuine antipartisan badge sell for a lot more than those $200 you indicate. $2000 is closer to it and thus there is profit in making a new toolset for fake production. PAB's as well, sadly cost more than those $200.

The internet has made it possible for us (collectors) to interact with each other in a totaly different way than we did just 5 years ago and makes it possible to clean out more fakes. We can share more facts, opinions and compare our pieces. Fakes is nothing new. Souval started to make their fakes in the 60's. Do not forget that it is not only fakes that are being discovered. Real, genuine and unknown pieces are discovered as well.

Peter

[mrg]

Hi Lemm thanks for the reply , but can we really tell how many of these awards are being produced on a world wide basis? I agree with what ddoering has said. Some People produce these simply because they want to see if they can. I once knew a dealer who admitted to me that he once knocked out a few awards because "he had nothing better to do and although it wasn't worthwhile time wise he was still making money!" I have also heard cases where Technology students have produced awards as part of their assigments and with full use of all tools knowing full well when it was all over there would be a market to move them onto. You also have to think about the film industries for example Downfall. uniforms, helmets ,awards etc all could look believable to the novice and where will these all end up? I once had an angument with a dealer who eventually admitted the award was a film prop from Cross of Iron. Still sold it thou as genuine . So I guess what I am saying is it is areas like these where your one off items could be appearing from.The mass produced fakes as already said from eastern Europe asia etc. What counts though is if YOU are happy with what you have, as i agree there can be a lot of mis information. All the best

[Peter Wiking]

I often wonder then whenever someone displays a badge that is given the thumbs down why no one seems to know who is making those badges or where they are coming from.
Phil

This piece is an absolute fake and produced in Hungary as far as is known.

Peter

[Peter Wiking]

www.regaliaspecialist.com/index.php?cat=Main

Peter

[greg.hays]

Hi Phil and welcome to the forum. I think if you continue to search the forums you will find that many "common" badges ie IAB, GAB and PAB's that are being faked have been traced to a source or linked to a specific "generation". Whether we think it makes economical sense or not the fakers are faking these badges well and often. Whether one chooses to ignore them when they are identified is ones own decision but it doesn't make a piece any less fake. Badges are cast copied and that is not a particularly expensive process, the vast majority are not die struck fakes so do not assume that it doesn't make sense to fake the common badges. Anyone could invest less then the cost of one genuine IAB and fool enough people to return that investment many times over. The fakes only have to fool one person one time to pay off for the crook and I dare say the vast majority of TR collecters do not visit this forum.............so I can surely see where faking common badges would make big$$$$. Just take a weekend and visit all the antique stores in a 100 mile radius and you will see where the fakers are making their money. Even the crudest cast copies are passed off as undoubtedly original to the untrained shopkeepers eyes.