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**greg.hays** · 08-09-2006, 08:00 PM

Thank you! I was waiting for you to do this since Marcus' Daisy....I don't have one or I would post

**Levesque** · 08-09-2006, 08:32 PM

Sure looks like a first pattern Daisy to me Robert

Dan

**robert60446** · 08-09-2006, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by Levesque

Sure looks like a first pattern Daisy to me Robert

Dan

Dan, yes it is 1st pattern. I misspelled.

**Panzer Rob** · 08-09-2006, 11:04 PM

Wow

The detail on these Daisy's is really amazing. Never realized that before!

**Philippe DB** · 08-10-2006, 01:22 AM

Dear Robert,

Are this the two other variants you are lookiing for?

KR
Philippe

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File0026.jpg (120.4 KB, 391 views)

**Philippe DB** · 08-10-2006, 01:23 AM

dito above but in Bronze

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File0025.jpg (91.5 KB, 388 views)

**Philippe DB** · 08-10-2006, 01:25 AM

And the third variant, found on the badges that develope the die flaw in the right track and feature the right two upper roadwheels without sprocket. These badges also don't feature the flaw in the left swas arm, visible on all the other badges posted so far.

KR
Philippe

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File0024.jpg (101.5 KB, 384 views)

**robert60446** · 08-10-2006, 01:59 AM

Originally posted by Philippe DB

Are this the two other variants you are lookiing for?

Dear Phil,
Exactly! Thanks for posting these.

So we got 3 different variants so far, I don’t think that there are any more out there, but let’s wait and see.

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-10-2006, 02:51 AM

I think these are SECOND pattern, guys.

So what do we make of these differences? I think it would be faulty to assume different makers because some are tied together by the same setups.

**Den** · 08-10-2006, 03:12 AM

Are the dots near the eagle claws the only details that you can recognice a first pattern daisy ? or are there other details you can point out ?

Kr. Den

**Philippe DB** · 08-10-2006, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by Frank Heukemes

I think these are SECOND pattern, guys.

So what do we make of these differences? I think it would be faulty to assume different makers because some are tied together by the same setups.

Hi Guys,

Have been giving this some thoughts lately too.

OK here is the history to start with. Why are we talking about a First and Second pattern Daisy. We do this because on the early hollow BM badges we can clearly make the distinction between two PAB's both featuring a daisy but at the same time being clearly different badges. One designer two manufacturers.

1 Pattern : Hanging canon
2 Pattern : Straight gun.

The design of the early second pattern Daisy's is continued in the Hollow zinc production of this maker. The second pattern is extemely rare as a BM variant but very common when it comes to the zinkers.

The design of the First pattern also continues in to a hollow zinc version but here we had a problem that already became visible on the last of the BM badges and is a constant problem on the hollow zinkers. Something went wrong with the die and the badges came out of it with a lot of flash in the cut-out area of the badge and with their gun connected by material to the wreath. Sometilms we find badges with all that surplus material still in place but on most badges it is filed away. Certainly on the zinkers this led to damage both on the wreath and gun.

So far the facts.

So why do we call the solid Daisy also 1 pattern. To me it made sense that due to the above mentioned problems with the 1 pattern die, the use of it might have been discontinued in favour of a new die for the production of the solid badges. Immediately explaining the differences in design.

This however is a simple theory that somehow made perfect sense to me. However this can't be proven. An other option would be that besides the early first and second pattern manufacturers a third player came in to the game that ordered a new die for the production of PAB's by the same designer and only ever made solid zinc badges.

Further taken in to account that the solid Daisy without a doubt is one of the most common PAB's arround I like to think that two dies might have been used in their production explaining the above differences.

@Frank, how would yo link the solid Daisy to the second pattern?

KR
Philippe

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-10-2006, 03:42 AM

Dear Philippe,

Except for the gun, I see profound differences in the eagle design, which I use as a means to differentiate between 1st ans 2nd pattern. However, I do more believe in the possibility of 1st and 2nd pattern being two different makers. On top of that, it might be debated that more than one maker made 2nd pattern badges.

**Philippe DB** · 08-10-2006, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by Frank Heukemes

Dear Philippe,

Except for the gun, I see profound differences in the eagle design, which I use as a means to differentiate between 1st ans 2nd pattern. However, I do more believe in the possibility of 1st and 2nd pattern being two different makers. On top of that, it might be debated that more than one maker made 2nd pattern badges.

Dear Frank,

For me it is absolutely a fact that the 1 & 2 pattern hollow BM Daisy were made by two different unknown makers with the second pattern linked in someway to Hymmen. Hymmen also had it's PAB design by the same artist and the set-up evolution on both makers badges (both PAB & IAB) run parallel. Hymmen was a Lüdenscheid based company and the 4 unfinished ground dug 2pattern hollow zinc Daisy's I once aquired were found in the Lüdenscheid area.

Taken in to account the evolution both in finish and set-up we see on the second pattern hollow zinkers I find it highly unlikely that that maker ever switched from hollow zinc to solid zinc production and on top of that had a new die made.

Concerning the possible makers involved I agree. If we don't link the solid badge to the first or second pattern, the above differences can be explained both by accepting mutiple dies used by one and the same maker or by different makers all using the new solid Daisy die. Problem here is how are we going to proof this one way or the other?

KR
Philippe

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-10-2006, 04:17 AM

Problem here is how are we going to proof this one way or the other?

At the moment, I handle all of these as separate, unknown makers. But I have a plan how to bring more hard facts into this. Will need you for two/three days in autumn to take some trips with me to get closer to the truth. It will delay my book some, but it will make it a better book as well.

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