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**scott3000** · 03-16-2006, 08:15 PM

I have seen these for sale too, wouldnt touch it

**Allan P.** · 03-17-2006, 04:02 AM

Thanks very much guys, learnt alot there.

Back it goes.

Allan

**skip** · 03-17-2006, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by Allan Pilch

Thanks very much guys, learnt alot there.

Back it goes.

Allan

Thats the best Alan but can you please measure it up before and do a weight. Would be good for future reference.

Thanks
Skip

**Den** · 03-17-2006, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by robert60446

Hi Allan,
I’m sorry but posted by you badge absolutely stays no chance in my eyes. As guys already pointed out, catch is lacking crimp marks, but overall depth of details known to me from the original AWS examples is missing here as well.

Agree with Robert an all other members here, badge has no details and a very strange looking eagle, I've seen these pab's for sale on a German site for 75 euro, didn't trusted them at first already, and wouldn't want one of these in my collection.

Kr. Den

**skip** · 03-17-2006, 04:30 AM

Guys,

are you all sure that it was exactly THIS type of badge or was it the very common "cutter" fake?

Skip

**skip** · 03-17-2006, 04:44 AM

"No Details´" I hear from the gallery but the sure authentic AWS is not the most detailed of PABs either.

Heres a comparison of Alans with mine. Pretty similar, the main difference is to be found on the machine gun port. My one sticks out while on Alans example its sunk in. Headlights, trackwheels etc. all are pretty similar and details can be lost during photo shopping.

Of course its most likely a cast copy of the original although I can see non of the usual telltale casting signs. One of the reasons I would like to know the size please Alan.

Skip

Attached Files

AWS compare.jpg (149.2 KB, 87 views)

**Philippe DB** · 03-17-2006, 05:08 AM

Hi Guys,

I know the cutter fakes of the AWS and IMO there can't be any doubt that these indeed are copies.

However since quite some time now I have been wondering about the type posted by Allan but never had the chance to examine one of these badges in hand to make up my mind.

The fact that I saw Allan post this in the Packet Forum and read that members thought the packet in which it came was original just started me thinking again and wondering if we ar not overlooking something here.

Untill today identifying an original AWS must be the easiest thing to do, all waffle crimps to the right and all the rest in to the bin. IMO this might be a litte to easy.

What if something went wrong with that waffle crimp device and for some reason they weren't able to apply this closing solder anymore? I immediately can think of more then one problem with those crimping devices (cfr. the oval Crimp PAB, the L/53 IAB's)

The main reason to see this as a real possibility for me can be found in taking a closer look at the catch on these badges. I once owend an AWS with a very loose catch and this allowed me to see that the original catches have a very small foot (impossible to see with the waffle solder in place) to be compared with what you see e.g on a BM Wurster. Well if you focus on the catch in the open crimp you can clearly see that Allan's PAB received exactly this type of catch.

I'm not saying that they are absolutely original but IMO they are well worth taken a closer look at.

KR
Philippe

**Frank Heukemes** · 03-17-2006, 05:14 AM

I am 100% with what Philippe says here, I think that in between the cutter fake and the waffle crimped originals, we are missing the whole picture of this PAB maker.

**skip** · 03-17-2006, 05:33 AM

Take a good look at post #4.
Whats the point of that large round plate. Its not soldered on, its part of the badge. Whats the point of that.

Now take a look at the large plate with waffle crimp. Pretty similar huh?

Skip

**Philippe DB** · 03-17-2006, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by skip

Take a good look at post #4.
Whats the point of that large round plate. Its not soldered on, its part of the badge. Whats the point of that.

Now take a look at the large plate with waffle crimp. Pretty similar huh?

Skip

Hi Skip,

Not sure what you mean with "large round plate" are you talking about the catch area?

In that area there is no plate the only thing you see are marks left by the crimping tool. The foot of the catch on the bottom side is entirely visible, its the copper colored base. Its not bigger then what you can see. Also the metal of that catch is a perfect match to the buntmetal catches used on the accepted Waffle Crimps.

KR
Philippe

**skip** · 03-17-2006, 06:07 AM

Phil,

what I mean is that this is the excess material that would have been used to form the waffle crimp.

Also, if they had been cast from an original waffle crimp the casting would have bought the waffle crimp over as well. As it is it appears to be just a smooth area with a hole i the middle.

Skip

Attached Files

JC3.jpg (105.0 KB, 82 views)

**Philippe DB** · 03-17-2006, 06:13 AM

Hi Skip,

Now I can follow and yep that makes perfect sense to me. The crimping device still worked fairly well securing the catch but the fine tuning wasn't there anymore. Taken in to account that these most likely were very late war badges, nobody really cared anymore, and they continued production.

KR
Philippe

**skip** · 03-17-2006, 06:31 AM

Hi Phil,

well I******180;m not 100% convinced that these are authentic badges but I******180;m not willing to write them off just because they don******180;t have the waffle crimp.
I really would like to handle one and failing that I******180;d like some weights and measures so that we can compare to the known legit ones.

Skip

**Philippe DB** · 03-17-2006, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by skip

Hi Phil,

well I´m not 100% convinced that these are authentic badges but I´m not willing to write them off just because they don´t have the waffle crimp.
I really would like to handle one and failing that I´d like some weights and measures so that we can compare to the known legit ones.

Skip

Well Allan just agreed to send me that badge for closer examination and compare to the accepted variant.

To be continued

KR
Philippe

**robert60446** · 03-17-2006, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by skip

"No Details´" I hear from the gallery but the sure authentic AWS is not the most detailed of PABs either.

Hi Skip,
Take a look at this picture. Do you see the difference in details? Eagle feathers on the left picture are just shallow and details are not “sharp” at all. The same goes to the eagle legs and his claws...
If you guys would like to approve this badge as an original, that’s fine with me, however this badge is absolutely not for my collection.

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