Legion Condor Tank Badge - The Silver Test Results

[WBallok]

This is an original Lisbon-made badge from the estate of Heinz-Theo Neumann. It is in bad condition but is original. The pin is a contemporary replacement and there are other examples like this, which indicates that there was a problem with the strength of the attachment of the pins to the badges.

Looking at the bones of the badge in Jacques's post #133, the soldier is certainly wearing such a badge. The da Costa firm in Lisbon apparently made two variants because they had a problem with the die but both badges were generally very similar in appearance. The most significant difference between the Lisbon and German badges is the bones. They look more like bones on the Lisbon badges.



This is a photograph from Jacques on another website. You can see what I mean about the bones. The badge in post #133 is the same kind of badge, probably from from da Costa in Lisbon. Several LC Pz veterans said they got new badges in Germany. They all had the badges like the ones owned by Heukemes, Keating, Don D and other people. One of them had a Lisbon badge with no pin. Others had no Lisbon badges because they lost them. One said, I think, that he lost his Lisbon badge in Spain and could not get a new one.

So when the OKH decided to legitimize the badge, they must for sure have consulted with Ritter von Thoma to see who qualified for the badge. Some men must have lost their badges. Others had broken badges. Some men for sure might not have received the badge in Spain but were later ajudged to be entitled to it.

So why would the OKH not command some badges to make sure every man got a new badge, all the same? Why does the document say "Der Panzertruppenabzeichen der Legion Condor in Silber"? There was only one class. But the Panzerkampfabzeichen had two classes. It is clear, if we employ logic, that the OKH maybe was thinking of making a Bronze class. They were thinking of making LCTBs when they composed the Bestizzeugnis.

Not one of the "Otto Schickle" type badges presented here is the same as the badges in the Otto Schickle catalog. Not one Otto Schickle-type badge has come from a veteran or a veteran's family. All we have are one or two wartime photographs showing badges that closely resemble the badge in the catalog. Assuming the catalog is not a fake, we can also assume that Schickle produced some badges. But nobody has shown a badge that matches the half-tone photograph in the wartime catalog.

I think now that this debate is becoming confused because of people who want to legitimize fake LCTBs and will do anything to acheive this aim, even casting doubt on the one type of German-made LCTB that everyone who has made serious studies in the past accepts to be authentic and awarded to LC Pz veterans. Jacques is a serious collector but even he came here to tell us that LC Pz veterans were not awarded any badges by the OKH. But he has has no evidence. It is only his opinion. I cannot prove that they were given badges by the OKH. Maybe the veterans made a mistake. But they were there and we were not there and back in the 60's and 70's they were not so old! They had clear memories.

Bill

[WBallok]

Just another comment: in Jacques' photo above, you can see that the badge is sewn to the legionnaire's uniform. So there is no pin on this badge. Just another reason for the OKH to make a decision to order a production of standardized, regulation badges for the 415 recipients to wear in the approved way on their field uniforms and waffenrock. I do not think it would have been tolerated to attach a badge in this way to a waffenrock tunic. The unit quartermaster would not have been happy, as any of you who know anything about the German Army regulations will agree.

Bill

[Frank Heukemes]

It was not a question of not believing you. I just did not understand. Now I understand! Please excuse me! I am a bit confused now. The breast eagle is by the same firm that made the award LCTBs? So which maker was it? Why does this GAB with the üü mark have the same hinge assembly? This is not a Wernstein GAB? So this "Wernstein" GAB is a fake? It has a cut out hinge plate. You can see it.

Hi Bill,

The firm that made the breast eagle and the awarded german type LCTBs is the same, but it remains unknown by name. It is the same I assume (and Yuri assumed) because the hing eis perfectly the same. On the "Wernstein" badge (which is of course no fake) you show (and on all other "Wernstein" badges) the hinge is DIFFERENT. The bottom of the hinge is ROUNDED on the "Wernsteins" and has pointed TIPS on the LCTBs and the breast eagle. Clearly a strong difference, so why should the LCTBs be "Wernstein".
Btw, the "Wernstein" type hinge with ROUNDED lower end can be found on BH Mayer war badges as well, so even that ROUNDED lower end hinge is not "Wernstein" exclusive.
I hope I was much clearer this time.

[Gerd Becker]

So why would the OKH not command some badges to make sure every man got a new badge, all the same? Why does the document say "Der Panzertruppenabzeichen der Legion Condor in Silber"? There was only one class. But the Panzerkampfabzeichen had two classes. It is clear, if we employ logic, that the OKH maybe was thinking of making a Bronze class. They were thinking of making LCTBs when they composed the Bestizzeugnis.

Didn´t Thoma receive a Gold LCTB and every one else got the silver one?

Gerd

[WBallok]

Ritter von Thoma's staff officers cast a gold version of the LCTB for their chief using a Lisbon badge and some Spanish gold coins. Maybe indeed this is why the certificate refers to the badge in silver.



If you look at the bottom radius of the hinge plate, it really looks like it is cut out. It does not look like shadows from the pin. The pin is shorter than the LCTB pin in question and has a rounded end. It is easy to cut short a pin and round off the end. Not a different pin, just shortened and rounded. But this really looks like the same hinge and pin type. It seems to have a cutout. You did a book about the GAB, Frank, so maybe you have a picture of the reverse of a üü GAB with the pin opened to show the hinge base plate that you could show us?

Bill

[WBallok]

Thank you for the clarification, Frank. I have never believed that the official German-made LCTB given to veterans by the OKH was made by Wernstein. Why would the OKH buy from Wernstein when they usually ordered badges and medals from Juncker, Godet or Deschler at that time? For me, the issue LCTB was made either by Godet or by Deschler. The hinge assembly is totally non-typical of Juncker. I have no proof of this, just my opinion. But at least we can be quite sure that this type of badge is original, unlike all the badges we have seen that are trying to be like the badge on the black background in the Otto Schickle catalog. This is a half-tone photograph with some light retouching so it shows accurately details like the shape of leaves in the wreath. I am more persuaded now that the catalog image is real because of all the badges trying to be like it so when someone shows us a badge that really matches it precisely, then we could be looking at an original variant like the one worn in the first photograph I showed, which is obviously the type of badge proposed in the catalog and therefore by Otto Schickle.

So, no need for more discussion until that day comes!

Bill

[skip]

Bill,

I think Frank and yourself are speaking at cross purposes.

Frank is trying to tell you that the "Wernstein" style of hinge as found on a variety of combat badges is not the same as the one on the LCTB or the breast eagle as shown previously.
They are similar but there are distinct differences.

Skip

[Don D.]

Here you go. First up, side by side.

[Don D.]

GAB hinge

[Don D.]

LCTB hinge

[Don D.]

Morning Skip. I see we were posting at the same time.

[skip]

Morning Don,

yes, looks like we had the same idea. Your scans are better though so I nicked them for a all in one pic.

Skip

[Don D.]

Thanks. I need to get better software so I can do that.

[Brian S]

Keep checking in, and don't see an Otto Schickle LCTB yet.

We have a catalog, a photo, they existed.

With the exception of hand finishing which is incredibly evident on mine and Alex's badge, the badges we have are identical to the catalog.

But, where are the Otto Schickle LCTB's people?

[WBallok]

Keep checking in, and don't see an Otto Schickle LCTB yet.

We have a catalog, a photo, they existed.

With the exception of hand finishing which is incredibly evident on mine and Alex's badge, the badges we have are identical to the catalog.

But, where are the Otto Schickle LCTB's people?

Yes, it seems that Otto Schickle made LCTBs. I do not think anyone here disputes this. It is funny that you say that you have not seen an Otto Schickle LCTB yet in this discussion because you keep telling us that your badge is an Otto Schickle LCTB. Your badge and Alex's badge are not identical to the badge in the catalog but if you cannot or will not see this, then there is no point in more discussion. Maybe you need to buy reading glasses or to clean your computer screen or something like that. They are NOT the same. What part of this conclusion do you not understand? Funny.

Bill