Legion Condor Tank Badge - The Silver Test Results

[Frank Heukemes]

I did not leave the house, I just have taken teh liberty to stay away from this forum for a day (you know, you could actually do that in this forum for the last years!). Quite a mess, this thread by now. I edited out the comments that either contained NOTHING but insults or the ones not related to this topic.

It is great to see Alex keep a clear head, he has said it all in post #13, last chapter. I do not think there is more to add to this.

[AZartman]

oh?

O.K.

It is just general knowledge.

Oh? A month's worth of posting on this and now it's general knowledge?

It could have been produced a bit earlier but it is something that we began to see around in the early 80's. We did not see these badges before but maybe someone can say otherwise. This is not the point. The point is that Brain S's badge is not the same as the one in the catalog.

Maybe so, I think he had some compelling arguments backed up with photos and notes. Not a perfect match but pretty close, but maybe no cigar. I'm open minded.

I think the catalog badge is not a drawing but is a retouched photograph.

So we are of multiple opinions on this...

There were two types of the badge in 1940: the one made in Lisbon and the type given to the Condor veterans in Berlin in 1939 and 1940. There are photos later in the war showing another type with differences in the wreath.

What differences? Photos please? So three types Lisbon, 39-40, and late war. If only we could post good photos of the three types for reference.

But it is easy to get a badge maker to copy a photograph and then tell people that the photograph from the wartime proves that the fake is authentic.

Really? Well, I haven't seen PERIOD photos that show the reverses in any detail for a badge maker to fake. Would be nice to have in any case for the archives. So if you run across one, please post it for us.

The only LCTBs you can trust are the ones from the veterans and the ones exactly like them.

No question there.

Others might be real but you cannot prove it. That is what the fakers did to the hobby.

True again.

Bill

[AZartman]

I did not leave the house, I just have taken teh liberty to stay away from this forum for a day (you know, you could actually do that in this forum for the last years!). Quite a mess, this thread by now. I edited out the comments that either contained NOTHING but insults or the ones not related to this topic.

It is great to see Alex keep a clear head, he has said it all in post #13, last chapter. I do not think there is more to add to this.

It feels so good to step away doesn't it? Good for you. In any case welcome back!

We agree for now to mutually disagree. That's fair. You have changed your mind about the 800 mark variation for reasons I hope that go beyond the fact that I posted one very similar to Brian S.

As I stated earlier, if we talk about provenance we must apply that across the board, thus leaving us with one lonely Indian, the Prosper Keating badge.

If we look beyond provenance, we can look at all the LCTB's posted by current and past members, and so far we can find similarities and clear differences. Still some research to be done. Only time will tell. Maybe we should call the LCTB the "Enigma"...The central question or problem of a narrative.
freespace.virgin.net/brendan.richards/glossary/glossary.htm

[WBallok]

Oh, didn't know that! I wonder - if that's the case - why there's even a discussion about it?

I think there is a discussion about it because some people want to legitimize their badges. The LCTB is not the only Third Reich decoration subject to this kind of discussion. No need to be sarcastic, young man. I am 68 years old and do not have time for rudeness from younger men.

Bill you speak with authority as a new member. If you care to elaborate please do so. For me the badge matches in many ways to the Otto S. in other ways a bit off. Maybe my memory fails me but I don't remember seeing the reverse of the Otto S. in the catalog illustration/photo/drawing posted by Gordon W.

I am new to the internet but old to the world of collecting! If one diestruck badge is "a bit off" when you compare it to another, then they were not made by the same dies. I do not mean the differences from handfinishing the edges with files. If the surface details of a medal or a badge are different than another, they are not the same.

The badge in the Otto Schickle catalog was only shown from the front. There was a discussion about this on another forum and it was agreed there that the image was a retouched photograph. Now they say here that it is a drawing. But why would an artist draw the flaws and pitting Brian S relies on as part of the proof that his type of badge is an authentic wartime item by this maker? I also wondered when I was first looking at the catalog image why a retouched photograph would show the flaws in the bone. It all seems a bit strange to me, a bit convenient that this image shows up in 2005. A pal told me he asked Gordon Williamson for more pictures of the catalog but Mr Williamson had sold it and could not remember who he sold it to or something like that.

Pieter Verbruggen is right. The Brian S badge is not the same as the badge shown the catalog. That is the only thing that matters here. They are not the same badge. You do not get minor differences between badges made on the same dies, except for handfinishing around the edges.

Bill

[AZartman]

Bill-

Let me be the first to welcome a new member to the WAF...I regret it happens to be on a contentious topic. I'm prepared to say mine or Brian's may not fit the Otto S. "retouched photo" to perfection. Then again, if it is a retouched photo how can anyone compare it to anything for that matter? How this idea or consensus on it being retouched happened I can only guess, post the thread, makes for good reading I'm sure.

For me there are still two issues:

Personally, what I find MORE interesting on what I have called the "800 mark" variety, is the hinge, pin shape, and catch and how it seems to resemble early badges LIKE M. Miller's Kampfwagen Abzeichen. Solid backed. " As M. Millert stated in that thread his badge is yet a third version with the solid back." or #2. Posted by J Temple-West from D. Nieman printed piece I believe. Hollow back model with marked pin (silver content?)

I find it worthy of further investigation but that's just me I guess.

Second:

If we put Bob H., next to Robin L., next to Prosper K., next to the "800 mark" they are all close but different in subtle and not so subtle ways. That isn't meant to be disparaging towards anyone, but simply taken from the posted photos that I have tried to provide side by side.

What we have yet to resolve is what exactly makes any versions other then Prosper Keatings legitimate? Or for that matter any badges that anyone may have that does not exactly match the illustration, photo, drawing whatever from GORDON'S catalog?

That just goes to show just how little factual, historical material we have to work with. Again, maybe more period photos will turn up in time, or catalogs for that matter. Again thanks to everyone.

[Frank Heukemes]

You have changed your mind about the 800 mark variation for reasons I hope that go beyond the fact that I posted one very similar to Brian S.

I did not change my mind, Brian has just put the things I said so often out of context and added some comments of his own to what I said, adding what HE thinks I think (quite absurd), that I should state now again what I think.

Yes, your badge and Brian`s badge do in my opinion match the OBVERSE illustration in the Schickle catalogue AS GOOD AS POSSIBLE for a comparison of a real badge and a wartime illustration which is not exactly a photograph. This is what I thought back then and this is what I still think.
However, Brain kept one interesting fact from us when he had his badge discussed back then: the 800 mark. We discussed his badge at length, yet he never mentioned, let alone showed the 800 mark. I do not think he simply forgot it was on there. These 800 marks on pins and the unusual font of the 800 mark are bad news in MOST cases. I do not say in all cases. Once I saw that mark on your badge and asked Brian if his badge has this mark as well, which he confirmed positively, I formed MY opinion about your badge and Brian's. I admit that the context in which YOUR (as in "not Brian's" not as in "all of Alex' things are bad") badge came up did not help. You asked for opinions, you got mine. I do not claim my opinions to be the absolute truth, it is MY truth, for me and my collection. People can share my views or decide to disagree. Fine with me. Like all others in here I just give my opinions.

I respect Rick Lundstr******246;m as a very experienced and knowledgeable collector and his comments are important. But personally, I do not share his opinion about the hinge anymore, after I saw it in more detail on YOUR badge. For me, this is rather a hinge I do not like to see on badges. This hinge is not unique to pre-war badges, it can be found on (known) fakes and on post war productions of Steinhauer and L******252;ck in a very similar way.

"WBallok"'s (Bill's) comments should not be ridiculed just because he is a relatively new member here. We do not know what he has done before he joined this forum, how long he collects, etc. His comments bespeak of some proper knowlede of the topic, he is just as qualified as everybody in here to comment on the situation. Remember that a new member might be a very experienced collector, while an old member in here might still be a beginner and remain one forever (no, Brian, I am not speaking of you, it is a general observation).

I am by no means afraid to show my LC PAB. It resides currently in my collection, it has been in others before. When I knew close to nothing about LC PABs (only a few years ago), I listened to people who owned such badges, showed where they came from, what they think makes them original in their opinion and so on.
Prosper Keating may have many facets to himself, one of it certainly is that of an experienced, intelligently observing collector, who has held many interesting and rare items. I followed his explanations, saw that other people posted the very same type of LC PAB from similar believable sources and decided for MYSELF and MY collection that this was the only type of LC PAB I wanted to own. As it has been said, there are certainly more types of original LC PABs. Unfortunately, these types rely on opinions. Brian might argue that his badge does NOT rely on opinions but on the Schickle catalogue. This is stretching the truth. The Schickle catalogue does not show a reverse side. If it would show one and it would be like the one of your and Brian's badge, one could conclude that your badges are very likely originals. Unfortunately, it is the REVERSES which cause discussions about your badges. That hinge and that maker mark are suspicious (to me at least).

Back to my badge. I waited several years until I decided to buy one and did so last year when the opportunity arose to get one of the type I and many others chose for their collection. I want to stress that I do NOT believe that this is the ONLY type LC PAB which is ok. It is just the only one (except for the almost unobtainable first pattern type) that I chose to own. Nothing more and nothing less. As PK has done before (I think his old thread can still be checked in here) this type badge is proven to be original because it was obtained from a vet and can be seen on period photographs in wear. I believe this badge to be silver plated Tombak. It matches Prosper Keating's example and the ones in collections of a good number of members in here which chose not to comment inthis thread.

[Frank Heukemes]

rev

[Frank Heukemes]

A pal told me he asked Gordon Williamson for more pictures of the catalog but Mr Williamson had sold it and could not remember who he sold it to or something like that.

Gordon was so kind to send me a photocopy of the Schickle catalogue when he discovered it. That is why I feel to be in a position to comment on it. There is absolutely no reason to believe that this catalogue is a modern fabrication. Certainly not the right angle to approach this discussion.

[Dietrich Maerz]

No need to be sarcastic, young man. I am 68 years old and do not have time for rudeness from younger men.

Thanks for the compliment, old man! I surely hope your current health status will give you at least that much time to explain why it is proven - at least for you - that this badge in question is a 'common knowledge' fake.

And I was not rude, nor sarcastic. Just astonished!

Dietrich

[Don D.]

Here is mine. Not the only type to exist for sure.

[Don D.]

The reverse. I hope this helps and we can all remain civil.

[AZartman]

It is getting late and I'm tired.

Frank, your response was exactly what I expected. Clear, fair and honest. Thanks.

I will read it again, and simply touch on a thing or two but for the most part well stated, and I'm grateful to have had this discussion. Your point about the 800 mark not being discussed way back in the original thread is absolutely correct and something that I must admit I should have raised myself a long time ago. I was puzzled about it too!

I chose to raise it with Brian privately to satisfy my own curiosity. He then provided me a picture of it to compare. If Brian wants to post a clearer close up of it, I will do the same just for the sake of documentation. I'll do a nice side by side.

Don- I'm so pleased you chimed in and I agree, the level of civility once again seems shaken...this "young man, old man" stuff has got to stop though I do appreciate the moderator Dietrich allowing the discussion to continue unabated from the get go. I also agree with Dietrich that it is worth explaining why it is proven - at least for Bill - that this badge in question is a 'common knowledge' fake. Seems to me there is no shortage of knowledgeable collectors here on the WAF that have FAR more experience then me, and would have run across this exact fake, real, undecided, 800 marked badge...and would have stated something if it's common knowledge.

In anycase, thanks to everyone, Frank, Robin L., Don, Dietrich, Sal, Brian, Bob H. and all the other's who have chimed in with positivity!

Peace

AZ

[Dave Kane]

Thanks for the compliment, old man! I surely hope your current health status will give you at least that much time to explain why it is proven - at least for you - that this badge in question is a 'common knowledge' fake.

And I was not rude, nor sarcastic. Just astonished!

Dietrich

I'd love to hear Bill's 'observations' from the 80's and farther back....he too, I'm sure, never thought that 20 or 30 years later that the crap introduced then would be embraced as original and with loose provenance added!

I've looked at the entire post and agree with Pieter, Bill and all those who see things clearly....there's NO WAY the catalog badge is a match to Brian's! Again, we see an attempt to associate a picture in an effort to legitimatize a dream, belief or whatever!

[AZartman]

side by side.

[AZartman]

mine...