Legion Condor Tank Badge - The Silver Test Results

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[AZartman]

Boy, I would like to learn about these enigmatic badges.
Brian and Peter you are not helping.
Could you both refrain from posting anything but your pictures and opinions and why you think what you think?
I notice Frank has left the building and I know why. That won't help us learn. Don has one of these but I don't think he wants to get involved in these shenanigans either. If it continues like this there will be no one left in this discussion just bickering.

How about if we all go back and self edit as a show of good faith.

Best, Sal

Great suggestion. I'm frustrated this thread degenerated.

I just wanted an open discussion and I was hoping Don and Frank H. would be interested as well. Don was a HUGE help in the previous thread with lot's of good resources and good photo scans that I found really interesting, and I thank him again for it. Robin, again thanks for the input.

If folks want me to photo compile and do side by side photos, or have suggestions, I can do so. Just ask.

Alex

[Thomas Durante]

Alex,

Regardless of how this turns out, way to go on spending a lot of your time (and money, I guess) to get your badge tested by two separate firms. Nice to see that

Tom D.

[AZartman]

Alex,

Regardless of how this turns out, way to go on spending a lot of your time (and money, I guess) to get your badge tested by two separate firms. Nice to see that

Tom D.

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Tom!

Thanks! I did spend a lot of time and a bit of $$. Figured it might help all those interested in this unique badge. I love Charleston, S.C.

I lived in Savannah, GA in the historic district for two years and still own a house there. I love that area so much I got married in Savannah. I'm still in touch with my friends down on Hunter Army Airfield, where they are building new Barracks and a Memorial to the fallen 75th Rangers that I helped design for the 75th Ranger's Regiment. The Ranger Ball is a hell of a party.

Cheers

Alex

[Sal Williams]

Peter is seems obvious that you have difficulty with Brian, it also seems equally obvious Brian has made up his mind on this badge and is not open minded. If we are going to pretend that is not the case and continue in this fashion I will start another thread on this subject and ask the two of you not to join in in that case. So let me ask once again can everyone please show good faith and edit thier posts.

best, Sal

[Brian S]

Another thing - the illustration in the wartime catalogue is NOT a photograph. It's a DRAWING.

No, Robin, it's a photograph. I forget the name for this type of photography but common for catalogs. Rick Lundstrom had the name for this but it escapes me. Photograph.

[Brian S]

Boy, I would like to learn about these enigmatic badges.
Brian and Peter you are not helping.
Could you both refrain from posting anything but your pictures and opinions and why you think what you think?
I notice Frank has left the building and I know why. That won't help us learn. Don has one of these but I don't think he wants to get involved in these shenanigans either. If it continues like this there will be no one left in this discussion just bickering.

How about if we all go back and self edit as a show of good faith.

Best, Sal

Dear Sal,

If Pieter could point out precise differences I would sit quietly and talk. But this is not the case. I'm sorry you don't know that Pieter and a couple others (one now suspended) have stalked me here on the forum and taken any and all pains to disagree no matter what the case.

The Otto Schickle picture is indeed a photograph. It is a match to my eyes and to several others. If we as a group have missed an obvious difference I would be interested in seeing that and having it pointed out.

I am not trying to cause trouble but I will not be stalked like this.

Nor has Frank done anything but stated an "opinion" with no substantiation whatsoever. That is not fair and certainly not allowed when their badges are at stake. Let's play on an even field or it's a free for all.

[Brian S]

For me it is quite a simple thing and does not require unsubstantiated opinions from members or moderators.

Fact: Gordon has brought to light for the first time an Otto Schickle catalog with a photograph of a LCTB.

Issue: Alex and I have what we think are a match. Gordon and Rick and at one time Frank believed it to be a match.

Requirement 1: If you think we have erred please show where in the comparisons we have erred.

Requirement 2: Show us an original Otto Shickle LCTB if you don't "believe" we have. (You can start a thread and have 75 varieties presented if you like but that doesn't get us to the Otto Schickle type.)

It really is that simple.

[WBallok]

The badge of Brian S and the badge in the pictures from the catalog are not quite the same. Anyone with experienced eyes for comparisons can see this. If you examine some leaves on the wreath you can see that the veins do not match up. It is very close but not quite the same. The flaws on the bones are not the same. The Brian S badge is a good fake which has been around since the 1980s. Maybe someone copied it from the picture in the catalog.

Bill

[WBallok]

The badge of Brian S and the badge in the pictures from the catalog are not quite the same. Anyone with experienced eyes for comparisons can see this. If you examine some leaves on the wreath you can see that the veins do not match up. It is very close but not quite the same. The flaws on the bones are not the same. The Brian S badge is a good fake which has been around since the 1980s. Maybe someone copied it from the picture in the catalog.

Bill

I tried to post a picture showing what I mean but it was not possible.

[Dietrich Maerz]

The Brian S badge is a good fake which has been around since the 1980s. Maybe someone copied it from the picture in the catalog.

Bill

Bill,

would it be possible for you to substantiate your opinion (or knowledge) that the BrianS badge is a fake? How would you know for sure and how do you know it's around since the 80's?

Dietrich

[AZartman]

Bill you speak with authority as a new member. If you care to elaborate please do so. For me the badge matches in many ways to the Otto S. in other ways a bit off. Maybe my memory fails me but I don't remember seeing the reverse of the Otto S. in the catalog illustration/photo/drawing posted by Gordon W.

These things are notoriously difficult and it seems there will be variations. I'm sure if you put several 2nd type silver washed or several solid silver 1st types together there would be some slight variations amongst them. I used these "labels" for lack of a better term.

Personally, what I find MORE interesting on what I have called the "800 mark" variety, is the hinge, pin shape, and catch and how it seems to resemble early badges LIKE M. Miller's Kampfwagen Abzeichen. Solid backed. " As M. Millert stated in that thread his badge is yet a third version with the solid back." or #2. Posted by J Temple-West from D. Nieman printed piece I believe. Hollow back model with marked pin (silver content?)

I find it worthy of further research. As we have now seen there are several collectors who have kindly shared their respective LCTBs and they all have variations thus far.

Thus if we put Bob H., next to Robin L., next to Prosper K., next to the "800 mark" they are all close but different in subtle and not so subtle ways.

Sadly I wish I could dig into some archives and know more but for now time will tell. I'm personally not ready to throw mine into the silver scrap heap yet.

Nevertheless as Sal, Brian and myself have asked and have yet to resolve is what exactly makes any versions other then Prosper Keatings legitimate? Or for that matter any badges that anyone may have that does not exactly match the illustration, photo, drawing whatever from GORDON'S catalog?

That just goes to show just how little factual, historical material we have to work with. Again, maybe more period photos will turn up in time, or catalogs for that matter. Again thanks to everyone.

[AZartman]

sorry duplicate. my fault.

[WBallok]

It is just general knowledge. It could have been produced a bit earlier but it is something that we began to see around in the early 80's. We did not see these badges before but maybe someone can say otherwise. This is not the point. The point is that Brain S's badge is not the same as the one in the catalog. I think the catalog badge is not a drawing but is a retouched photograph. There were two types of the badge in 1940: the one made in Lisbon and the type given to the Condor veterans in Berlin in 1939 and 1940. There are photos later in the war showing another type with differences in the wreath. But it is easy to get a badge maker to copy a photograph and then tell people that the photograph from the wartime proves that the fake is authentic. The only LCTBs you can trust are the ones from the veterans and the ones exactly like them. Others might be real but you cannot prove it. That is what the fakers did to the hobby.

Bill

[Dietrich Maerz]

It is just general knowledge.

Oh, didn't know that! I wonder - if that's the case - why there's even a discussion about it?

Dietrich