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**Bruce Simcox** · 01-01-2006, 04:15 PM

Hi Robert......

Originally posted by robert60446

Bruce,
Also I’m 100% positive that these marks are not because of the dirt or debris buildup on the die, because this would give you a depression in the obverse surface…

......It depends on how one looks at them. Quite possibly debris could still be responsible for leaving marks like that. The marks, as seen from your images, look to be flush with the surrounding areas and the deppressions seem to be to either side of them......well, you get the idea....I'm sure.

Not having your badge in hand makes it hard to be sure whether those are raised marks or just seem so.

I would bet that if I can get a chance to meet with Chet at a local show, when we both can be there at the same time, I can really then see for myself if he were to bring his badge along. Nothing beats hands-on, so for the time being then, I'll defer to your explanation that the marks couldn't possibly be caused by debris. Tough to call just from images.

The possibility of a developing die flaw could still explain them.

You tell me.....what do you surmise them to be from?

I'm curious.

**robert60446** · 01-01-2006, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by Bruce Simcox

The possibility of a developing die flaw could still explain them.
You tell me.....what do you surmise them to be from?
I'm curious.

Bruce,
i really don’t know what to think about it yet. First I was hoping to have some connection between those marks and production stage for ******220;******220; company, but now when I know that Chet’s badge is with different type of hardware it tells me that this small phenomena did occurred in different production stages as well (I’m basing this on the different hardware used on mine and Chet’s badge). Because these marks are identical on "our" badges, they are not accidental creation IMO (like dirt, debris and etc.). The die flaw solution would be the easiest one reason to accept for these marks, but then if we have them on Chet's badge i would expect to see those marks on every ******220;******220; PAB with my badge hardware type as well (as a logical continuation of the developing die flaw), but that's not the case...
Other possibility of course is that ******220;******220; was using at least 2 dies for their production and they were doing this simultaneously. If we are ready to accept Frank’s theory about ******220;******220; conglomerate then this makes even more sense to me.
But maybe I’m just stretching my imagination…

**Frank Heukemes** · 01-01-2006, 06:13 PM

Frank’s theory about ******220;******220; conglomerate

Not my theory, but the recollections of Friedrich Orth's son. I stay open minded in this regard, although it was interesting to hear. All I firmly believe in is that ******220;******220; is not Wernstein. Proof has been submitted elsewhere in other threads on this topic.

**Bruce Simcox** · 01-01-2006, 06:16 PM

Hi Robert......

......It never hurts to stretch the imagination. I hope something more revealing will arise from your inspection of the badge.

As per the hardware issue: I have my reservations about making absolute calls concerning production times/stages using harware as the benchmark. I think that, as has been discussed before, that sharing of hardware and application of hardware had more to do with availability of such.

Good luck with your efforts though.

Best regards,
Bruce

**Levesque** · 01-01-2006, 08:00 PM

Here's my silver uu PAB with the classic set-up and it has the two marks you are looking for although they don't show up very well on my scans

Attached Files

PKA üü silver o.jpg (119.7 KB, 123 views)

**Levesque** · 01-01-2006, 08:03 PM

reverse...

Attached Files

PKA üü silver r.jpg (113.2 KB, 123 views)

**Levesque** · 01-01-2006, 08:06 PM

close up ....marks are very faint, but they are there.

Attached Files

uu close up.jpg (65.9 KB, 123 views)

**robert60446** · 01-01-2006, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Levesque

Here's my silver uu PAB with the classic set-up and it has the two marks you are looking for although they don't show up very well on my scans

I can see it just fine! Many thanks Dan!

**Marc Garlasco** · 01-01-2006, 08:35 PM

Robert,
This might make no sense. Forest and trees answer. When I look at the badge in hand I think I can make them out very faintly, but under magnification nothing...

Marc

**robert60446** · 01-01-2006, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Flak88

Robert,
This might make no sense. Forest and trees answer. When I look at the badge in hand I think I can make them out very faintly, but under magnification nothing...

Marc

Ok, hmmm...can you feel them under the finger Marc? And if yes, what kind of hardware setup is on your badge?

**Marc Garlasco** · 01-02-2006, 07:59 AM

OK - she must have them...

**robert60446** · 01-02-2006, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by Flak88

OK - she must have them...

Thanks Marc, i can clearly see it! Yet, it is another badge with “classic” hardware setup.

@Giel's friend badge - it is with “classic” hardware setup as well.

**robert60446** · 01-02-2006, 11:55 AM

Ok guys, time to wrapped this up!
First I have to say, that I believe in Friedrich Orth's son story: 5 companies united under the ÜÜ logo. Based on what I can see from badges posted here it is enough evidence for me to assume that at least 2 dies were used by ÜÜ. At this point it would be very interesting in my opinion to carefully inspect ÜÜ marked badges for potentially more small differences (additions and etc.) in the obverse design. I’m suspecting that we haven’t seen everything from ÜÜ badges yet…

**Giel VW** · 01-02-2006, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by robert60446

First I have to say, that I believe in Friedrich Orth's son story: 5 companies united under the ******220;******220; logo.

Because of the 5 dots abouve the UU?

**robert60446** · 01-02-2006, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Giel

Because of the 5 dots abouve the UU?

There you go Giel....

Originally posted by Frank Heukemes

Ok, some more on this:

-ever wondered why the very peculiar font of the letter W in "W in circle with five dots on W" is the same as Wilhelm Hobacher`s in "Wilhelm" and "Wien" on some of his badges? Possibly just a coincidence, but the font IS special. Hobacher and the maker in question come from "Wien" (Vienna).

-ever wondered why "Wernsteins's" PAB and GAB design are related to the "Vienna design"

-ever wondered why Third reich Wernstein ads never carry this "W in circle logo"?

I was stuck with these badges of a different design than the "Wernstein" ones in Wernstein packets, the design and the advertisement observation until this came along:

-recently, a befriended German author contacted the son of a Vienna based maker of Third Reich badges. Kind of a private person and it is not really important to know which maker it was, so let´s just say one of the known ones and the last name does NOT start with a "W" . Presented the "W in circle with five dots on W" mark, he remembered playing with the stamp for this mark as a boy in his father´s workshop. He further remembered, that the Vienna based makers were organized in an "Arbeitsgemeinschaft", meeting in Vienna Kneipe at a Stammtisch, a reserved table for regulars. The boy often joined his father in these meetings. He was not really sure upon recollecting the following, but when asked "what does the W stand for?", he suggested it was "W" for Wien and the five dots could have represented the member companies of that union.

You see, evidence builds up on "W in circle NOT being Wernstein" while at the same time evidence builds up for badge in Wernstein packets being NOT of the "accepted" Wernstein design (but of a known type which is absolutely original, as well as the packets. All three packets with badges came from very different sources around the world.

I wanted to contrast this with some proof FOR the accepted combination of "W in circle" with Wernstein, that why I asked if anybody can show anything PRINTED PRE 1945 which can support this link.

I am kind of torn how to present the "W in circle" badges in my book. So far, for the sake and sanity of the collecting community having accepted this for decades and for the substantial lack of factual proof so far (except for what I listed above), I decided to leave it as is for now. But I wrote about all of the above in a chapter called "GAB Research".

I am quite sure, more will be found to turn this theory into fact, while nothing will be found to link "W in circle" to Wernstein. Btw, I am aware that in an old book by Vern Bowen about the Iron Cross there is a print of an old original LDO list. It is TYPEWRITTEN but against some of the names are HAND DRAWN logos. Against Wernstein is drawn the ÜÜ logo. If anybody of you has that book, I would appreciate a scan of that respective page.

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