Some details - the pin and hinge construction - PERFECTLY MATCH to the one presented by Henri in case of construction and the material used. The green areas show the MATCHING details.
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hinge zoomedComment
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wing tips zoomed - note the small 'whole' or 'crater' - the same detail is clearly visibile on the Henri's double stamped example. The location is another perfect match.Comment
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blurry SBW stampComment
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detailed picture of them bothComment
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the observer badge shows similat details in case of the hinge-pin-catch construction. In this case - the hinge is made from the same material as both para but it was covered with silver.Comment
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the hinge - note its soldering attachment technique.Comment
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rear view - pin offComment
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the SBW stamp is clearly seen on this one - note the questionable pattern.Comment
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Just to be fair - here is a SBW stamped retired pilot badge - pretending to be a war-time example.
The stamp itself shall be an indicator that this badge was not made in the war-time era. However the stamp on this example is razor sharp and thick. The 57-ers shown above have the same SBW logo pattern but it is more delicate and shows the blurriness.
Is the war-time fake bearing the 57-ers stamp? Or simply all pieces stamped with SBW are fakes?
Last edited by Okrach; 11-10-2005, 03:35 AM.Comment
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Yes perfectly identical I would say. Could the SBW be another maker not BSW? In my opinion, the wreath and pin were made by one maker and the eagle by another.
With no quality control, these could very easily have been made from casts. If you look at Mike's award the wreath shows some lack of definition too. Saying that, it does not speculate it as a fake. Anyone can produce 57ers, but as a collector one has to evaluate the level of quality to accept.
Remember that most of these awards were / are done for the collector and in a totally commercial way. Most collectors go for these awards because they cannot afford the authentic WWII issues and is a good way to start.Comment
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Debtable problem I would say. In my humble opinion we need to focus on these issues:
1) Is SBW pattern a true BSW pattern but due to the mistake it has the another letter pattern as the original war-time BSW products?
2) Is SBW a different company which uses similar logo?
3) Why some SBW products are bearing another mark ('41' ) on their pins (same '41' marked pins are spotted i.e. on the Juncker 57-pilot badges)?
4) If there is no official list of the 57-ers manufacturers how is it possible to define if the badge is fake or not?
5) Following 4 - If there is no official criteria how the badges are supposed to look like how is it possible to define its originality then?
Even if the first three questions can be answered precisely (leaving no place for hesitation) the other two will make the problematic gate open...
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Hi ,
The stamp looks like it,s taken off the cast not stamped onto the eagle .
1 / I would say no to that , why has BSW gone to the extra expense of making a new stamp specially for 1957 badges ?
2/ SBW ? i,ve looked on the lists and can't see another manufacturer anyone else ?
3/ If that,s true i,d say it,s either the maker 41 is making the pins and selling them to other makers or someone is marking them to boost the price .
4/ It isn't i think basically anyone can make 1957 awards as long as they stick to the awards design criteria.
5/ there is a regulation on the design of 1957 awards released by the West German government , Henri S got hold of a copy
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Regards
GrantComment
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1 - destroyed, damaged, lost in a mess of the post war months?Originally posted by Grant BroadhurstHi ,
The stamp looks like it,s taken off the cast not stamped onto the eagle .
1 / I would say no to that , why has BSW gone to the extra expense of making a new stamp specially for 1957 badges ?
2/ SBW ? i,ve looked on the lists and can't see another manufacturer anyone else ?
3/ If that,s true i,d say it,s either the maker 41 is making the pins and selling them to other makers or someone is marking them to boost the price .
4/ It isn't i think basically anyone can make 1957 awards as long as they stick to the awards design criteria.
5/ there is a regulation on the design of 1957 awards released by the West German government , Henri S got hold of a copy .
Regards
Grant
2 - yeap I couldn't find it either - hence more likely No.1 (who would do a copy of the 57 award and use the maker mark never used before?)
3) - we wil probably never know that for sure. '41' stays for Gebrüder Bender, Oberstein)
4) - unfortunately true - does it mean ALL are originals?... how to treat them then?
5) no official regulations = everything is fake or everything is OK
PS. What is your point Grant? According to 1-3 it is most likely a fake, According to 4-5 it is a nice original then
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I'll just chime in....... as others have mentioned, SBWs were U.S. made repros, to the best of my knowledge. Interesting thread, never-the-less.
Regards,
Mark"You can check out any time you like ..... But you can never leave....."Comment
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