Hi Felix and Frank, I thought the most recent discussion about these focused on the reverse of the eagles head. There was a specific attribute Philippe pointed out as being present on, like 99% of the originals. Felix's badge does have it. I really am clueless on PAB's but I didn't like this badge until I saw the pics of the reverse of the eagle. Am I way off?
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I just very recently handled one of these "weird" ones and was puzzled by the fact how comparatively undetailed it was compared to the "classic" nickel silver "Porsches". If one checks each and every so called "Porsche" from the earliest to the latest badge in their evolution, it becomes very apparent that even the latest badges in zinc have excellent and razor sharp detail. However, these weird badges don´t, no matter if worn or unworn. And they are supposed to be early. Not as early as the nickel silver ones, but still far earlier than the zinc ones.
I know about this back of the head detail by now, but I cannot see how it could not easily be reproduced.Cheers, Frank
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Hi Guys
In the light of the recent flood of almost perfect hollow Porsche PAB's comming from one source in Gemany I have been investigating not only these new copies but every other hollow Porsche PAB I was able to lay my hands on or get pictures of.
Based upon what I learned from the new Porsche fakes I think I discovered a series of older fakes that untill now were never discussed. However at this moment I just don't have enough evidence to make a case and that it why I never put this up for discussion.
The only thing I can say today is that neither the new nor the old fakes seem to match the type posted by Felix which in fact is the same type recently discussed in this thread
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=115625
Based upon everything I know I consider these badges original but at the same time have to admit that somehow they don't seem to fit in to the logical production evolution which IMO would be
Hollow Nickel silver
Hollow Buntmetall
Massive zinc + Cupal
Hollow zinc
The badge posted by Felix seems to exist in the following variants
Hollow Nickel Silver
Hollow buntmetall (the only badges I have on file are Bronze grades)
Hollow zinc
All the above badges have one thing in common they all feature the exact same set-up with their typical angled cut hinges.
These badges for sure need further research and if anybody has a similar PAB or maybe IAB's or GAB's with this set-up in their collections I would very much like to see them.
KR
PhilippeComment
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Dear Greg,Originally posted by greg.hays
I don't think I ever wrote that the cut-out is present on 99% of the originals. based upon what have observed one out of two of the original early Nickel silver IAB's and PAB's badges seem to feature this cut-out. Sometimes very pronounced and sometime barely visible.
The same however is true for the type Felix posted with one difference here they are also are present on what I believe to be zinkers but again not on all of them.
So there really isn't much logic to be found in this certainly because I don't have a clue what the purpose of that cut-out could have been. On the other hand the fact that we see Felix's type also with and without it a strong indication that these are originals. Why would a faker bother with this feature. Either he based his copy on an original featuring it, or he didn't.
KR
PhilippeComment
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Good morning Guys,
Please check this picture out. PAB in question is first from the top. I have found 2 more similar PAB's in my pictures library (marked with the red arrows as well). Similar but slightly different...Please pay attention to the red arrows on the picture and check these areas with other PAB's...these areas are quick eye catching difference points.
Here is more "beef" against this badge:
PAB in question is blurry in details (especially rear side is extremely weak)
This is another example without extra material at the rear side between sprocket and the wreath
Please check the details from the "grass" area. Felix PAB grass is "fat" and not sharp as on other good PAB's. The same goes to the details on the wheels and sprockets. All these areas from Felix PAB are just "fat" in finish...
@ Philippe, please recall from your memory rear side of the fake unmarked Assmann PAB. That badge got the same problem as Felix badge: weak and soft rear...I'm maybe wrong Philippe, but these 2 recent Porsche PAB's are looking to me like reproductions...Last edited by robert60446; 04-07-2007, 06:30 AM.Comment
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And the pictures of the "grass" areas...PAB in question is first from the top. Please note how "fat" grass looks here when compared to the other Porsche PAB's...BTW, please pay attention to the wreath leafs details as well...Last edited by robert60446; 04-07-2007, 06:30 AM.Comment
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Hi gents!
Robert, Im going to show you a scan of my badge. Just to clearlify that I think youre wrong on your Fat grass theory. By the way, if youre going to make comparisons between different badges, make atleast sure you use the same scale. Otherwise its very misleading!
Youre being fooled by the lights in photos. And its really not so easy to see. Lights, shadows and oxidation on some areas and spots can make a big difference. I will show you. The only point youre right about is that the details of the wreath are not as sharp. I cant really explaon why. The details on the back are almost as sharp as on other porsches. Even in pressed badges you can find some small differences in depth of pressing and sometimes of quality of the metal.
Difference is also the finish of the badges. And if you compare the reverse sides you notice some black grooves in the nickel-silver badge that makes it look like sharper details. This is the result of oxidation. If you measure the depth Im sure its almost the same. However the visible result is different. These are my odservations. Ive seen it on a lot of other badges.
I will show more photos later on.Comment
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Nice work again Robert, for me I have doubts about these two recent badges, mainly the 'soft' detail espeically of the reverse-with this quality to detail we may have to call them Hugo's
(Remember that Russian member that had a Porsche that looked like the reverse was etched in clay, anybody have pics in their file of this and it got a thumbs up I never like it, then the guy disappeared?.)
@Philippe can you post pictures of reverse of badges like Felix's, Im simply looking for the extra material found I thought on all Hollow Porsches(located on upper right road wheel and wreath-recent fake examples have this also), I see it on NS, messing and zink Porsche PAB's....
also how common is position of catch on wreath vs. grass area
Felix scan does make it look more promisingLast edited by VonLuger; 08-27-2005, 09:45 AM.Comment
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Another photo....
Im happy to got a clear photo at last....Comment
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Im posting the back side. Its almost as good detail as other original Porsches.
Please take a look at this thread; http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...0&page=1&pp=15
My badge is very, VERY, very close to this one. I would say that they are made in the same press tools!
Notice the needle. Same look as on other real examples.
Cheers,
FelixComment
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Hi guys
To avoid any confusion:
1. These are not recently discovered badges. The oldest pics in my files of badges with this set-up are 5 years old and one of these badges could be traced back to 1982. Although still 37 years short of mai 1945 at least enough proof to say that they are not recent inventions.
2. Robert you really can't compare this badge to the Assmann we recently discussed. That was a crude cast fake that also gave itself away based upon its measurements. The last angled hinge cut PAB I handled is spot on when it comes to measurements.
3. Robert I fail to see the obvious differences you tried to highlight in you compares.
4. I also fail to see the soft detailing on the reverse.
5. Based upon the last picture posted by Felix it should be obvious that this is a nickel silver badge. You have to take in to account that unlike any other badge you won't see wear on such badges based upon pictures. Even if you would file out the swas the color of the material wouldn't change in any way.
So take in to account that these very very early awarded badges saw quite some action and as such can be very worn. The wear however will show itself not via damage to the finish or the material like on zinkers, but by loss of detailing, both on the panzer and the oakleaves. IMO this is what you see on the left hand oakleaves of Felix's badge.
At this moment I won't exclude that there might be angled cut hinge Porsche fakes arround but as far as I'm concerned Felix's example isn't one of them.
KR
PhilippeLast edited by Philippe DB; 08-27-2005, 10:51 AM.Comment
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Hi Felix,Originally posted by Felix
Didn't mention it myself but this indeed is a very good point. If you ever handled an original Porsche the pin alone will tell you most everything you need to known.
KR
PhilippeComment
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For comparison...hey robert look how fat my grass looks..
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Hi Scott,
Your badge is a good example of what I tried to explain. If you only go on detailing yours would be a fake too because you eagle has no face.
Wrong ofcourse. It once had a face but due the the action it saw it is completely rubbed away on an otherwise perfectly in tact badge.
KR
PhilippeComment
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Yes I agree completely I think we sometimes take this stuff to a new level...here is the rear for good measure ...Comment
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