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**Andreas Klein** · 08-04-2005, 02:41 AM

Hello Mike,

you point exactly out what i mean ...

Some more thoughts about the S&L combat badges which i can't explain:

If we have a look on the IC, German Cross, War merrit cross and so on from S&L these awards are the most time maker marked, but:

1.
Is there a S&L marked PAB - no.

2.
Is there a S&L marked GAB - no.

3.
Is there a S&L marked IAB - yes, but only one piece in Tucker's book but it's the same IAB i can show with an L/50 marking

This IAB features a noticeable front design, so we can identify it easily ... now have a look on the backside of this IAB and we'll find 5 or 6 different setups for hinge and catch! Where is the reason for S&L (or any other firm) to use such a amount of different setups for the same badge ?

Isn't there the possibilty that we are talking about a retail toolset which was given to different firms ?

**robert60446** · 08-04-2005, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by ak72

1.
Is there a S&L marked PAB - no.

2.
Is there a S&L marked GAB - no.

Hi AK,
I guess statements like these two points are just not fair. Few days ago we had no clue about the existence of the OSANG marked PAB...Few days ago we had no idea about the existence of the S&L marked bags for GAB...Just because you don't see something today is not a reason to dismiss or to object existence of it.

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-04-2005, 11:44 AM

Hi all,

This sentence from Mike K. is the key how to look at these things:

Of course, if BOTH Juncker and S&L sourced this hinge/pin/catch assembly from a specialist third party, then going the next step and stating that ALL badges with this hinge/pin/catch assembly were made by S&L would be incorrect, especially as there are marked and accepted zinc Juncker badges which use the assembly

Of course, not ALL badges with that setup are by S&L. Some are by Juncker, some are by S&L, some are by Zimmermann, some by Osang, and Souval also uses the same oblong catch plate and catch on his destroyers.

The clues to link that GAB to S&L do not just lie in this setup. It consist of many factors and you cannot pick out just one of them and say, "but there is the same badge with that other marking " Look at it this way: the IAB in Mike Tucker´s book, marked "4" does not prove anything, standing on its own. I was of this exact same opinion when I first saw it. But it is worth it to keep it in mind. Now other clues pointing towards S&L were found. One especially you just cannot contradict: the rare Tombak hollow GAB from that die features a catch that can be found on no other GAB and except for that, only on S&L's "4" marked Iron Crosses. This is just the strongest example, there are many more clues you will see featured in my book, if you are interested to pursue this. Some of them are impossible to explain with just words, you need to see pictures. Please understand that I do not want to post one of the most important findings of my book in every detail with all the pics before the book was even published. We can discuss this lateron until our fingers bleed, if you wish so, but I am sure that the evidence IN COMBINATION will convince you.

To come back to the "4" marked IAB: it is just important because it does not CONTRADICT the other findings, but supports them. The same IAB marked L/50? No problem for me, these "distributor marks" can be found on all sorts of badges. For example, I am currently monitoring a certain PAB type which was found also bearing a L/50 mark. Maybe this makes ALL of these PABs Godet, maybe not. I will bear the mark in mind and look for more clues.

Some other marks can be on a badge for a number of unknown reasons. Ak, your "20" mark on an RK type GAB MIGHT not even be a Zimmermann mark but just some control or whatever related mark. I say that because it is not a known Zimmermann mark, just its Präsidialkanzlei number.

**Darrell** · 08-04-2005, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Frank Heukemes

This is just the strongest example, there are many more clues you will see featured in my book, if you are interested to pursue this. Some of them are impossible to explain with just words, you need to see pictures.

Speaking of which .... you got some packed and ready to ship Frank?

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-04-2005, 11:55 AM

Very soon. The book is "ready" since about four weeks now. I had some great things pop up last minute (like Skip`s S&L packeted GAB) which I want to include. Being author, layouter and publisher in one person, I can allow myself to do so and the delay will be relatively small. The book grew to approx. 440 pages by now. Just some days ago, upon a hint by Robert, I acquired something so unbelievable that I will show you this evening in an extra thread!

**Marc Garlasco** · 08-04-2005, 12:45 PM

Such a tease!!!

Marc

**Bob Hritz** · 08-04-2005, 02:46 PM

This GAB came to me from the veteran who looted the Steinhauer and luck factory, with his buddies. There was a good sized bag of Steinhauer decorations and a number of these GAB's. I never doubted these were steinhauer and Luck badges, but many want them to be juncker, for some odd reason.

Bob Hritz

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**Bob Hritz** · 08-04-2005, 02:48 PM

Verso

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Mvc-011s.jpg (37.9 KB, 155 views)

**Bob Hritz** · 08-04-2005, 02:51 PM

Each of the GAB's from this veteran, had the same defect on the reverse. I always wondered if it was a correction from misplaced catch and these were left in Steinhauer's stock because they were rejected.

Bob Hritz

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**robert60446** · 08-04-2005, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz

This GAB came to me from the veteran who looted the Steinhauer and luck factory, with his buddies. There was a good sized bag of Steinhauer decorations and a number of these GAB's. I never doubted these were steinhauer and Luck badges, but many want them to be juncker, for some odd reason.
Bob Hritz

I guess Bob just nailed all the "non believers" to the ground right now...

**Frank Heukemes** · 08-05-2005, 01:29 AM

Well, Bob is the "man" I always cite in this connection and that is the story and the items the GI brought back.
This S&L GAB type (Bob's badges) have the shorter barrel hinge and round catch plate, they are later types than the "Juncker" S&L GABs. They are also fatter and heavier.
Amazingly, I do own this very same type of GAB, from a very different source. Mine is in worn condition. It has the very same defect as Bob#s badges, meaning that the catch plate was frist soldered on in a higher position.
If you are interested enough, you can find this same evolution on S&L's (formerly "Zimmermann") PABs. First the "Juncker" setup, later the heavier badge with the shorter barrel. For anybody familiar with the term, Philippe called these "Monster" PABs. Bob's GABs are the corresponding "Monster" GABs.

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