Juncker GAB, not?

[skip]

This rather nice bag was given to me by a friend today. Nothing spectacular in itself until you see which maker is on the bag. I´ve no reason to believe that the badge does´nt belong in the bag. It was wrapped in tissue paper inside and came direct from the awardees house.

Skip

[skip]

The maker

[skip]

The front of the badge.
(I know Frank already knows what the backs going to look like)

[skip]

suprise!!

[Frank Heukemes]

Hahahaaaaa! I could KISS you for that one Skippy!
I have about ten pages in my book proving that this badge is S&L and not Juncker. One more reason to believe it is!

[Frank Heukemes]

I wonder why these findings do not deserve more enthusiasm? Or should we still call them Juncker, just to make everybody happy? These GABs are S&L, provable in many directions. I hope you also understand the full scope of this. It is one more puzzle piece which also makes the "Zimmermann" PAB S&L and the "Juncker project" IAB S&L.

[Andreas Klein]

Well Frank, IMO this is interesting but no prove because we have still an unmarked badge ! .... Perhaps S&L bought this GAB from "Juncker" to fill up their award offering.

Remember that RK Gab with the marking "20" on it which i showed to you .... was that the prove that the so called RK Gab was made by Zimmermann ?

We both said "no" ....

[Frank Heukemes]

Well, I am not happy posting my book here in total before it is published, but trust me, there is a good load of evidence that this GAB was made by S&L, about ten pages of comparisons and pics. Other wise I would not have such a big mouth claiming that this GAB is S&L.

I am only talking about things that can be shown, so everybody can look and evaluate. But personally, for me, two things were even more important. They are just stories and they cannot be reproduced with pictures, but I think they were just as important and definitive proof for me:

One is Skip's finding, the other is this story: upon questioning an older collector if he might have any GABs to contribute for my book, he said "I have these mint GABs which a GI brought back at the end of the war, taking them out of the company of Steinhauer & Lück." He sent me pics and they were of the type I ascribed to S&L through comparisons of EK1s, PABs, IABs and GABs. S&L's GAB comes in four main variants of evolution:

-Tombak hollow (with the very unique S&L Iron Cross 1st class catch)
-mid term production (as pictured above)
-late production with shorter barrel hinge, lesser quality zinc and finish
-mid to late productuion with sheet metal hinge

Now out of these setups only ONE was similar to a Juncker setup, which helped this badge to end up as the "Juncker" GAB. No other thing ever pointed towards Juncker. Now, ak, you tell me that:

1) sharing the same unique catch as S&L's EKs on the hollow Tombak GAB
2) the ability to compare and track S&L's setups over the PAB back to "4" marked EKs, "4" marked IABs and "o" marked E-Boats first type ("o" being a known S&L mark)
3) the fact that a badge coming from the house of a German vet was found in a S&L packet

is nothing and that we should continue to believe the collector fairy tale that Juncker is the maker? What do you base that on?

The "Juncker" setup is by far not unique to Juncker. Check out destroyer badges by Souval, IABs by Zimmermann, PABs by an unknwon maker, possible Osang and some hollow Cupal GABs by an unknown maker for the same setup with oblong catch plates Juncker used.

[MH184]

I love the packet !!!

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi Frank......

......I, for one, who am usually pretty sceptical about 'new' discoveries agree with your findings. Findings, I might add, that come about from the sort of diligent and patient research used to draw conclusions based on fact, instead of only speculation. Generally though we start with speculation and if the facts bear out the ideas then we have......voila!......in this case, the S&L badge identification.

My compliments. This is the type of work that many of us have looked forward to seeing take place. Not only just to occur, but just as importantly, to bear fruit.

-------------------------

Bruce

[robert60446]

Hi Frank,
Thanks for the Great, very logical and essential explanation of these bare facts. Let's hope that for once we can root out all these "Juncker projects" nicknames and start recognizing S&L as the real manufacturer of these badges.

[Andreas Klein]

Frank, i see your reasons and i respect them and if we all want to call this type of badge in the future a S&L Gab why not .... who cares ?

My personal opinion is that the firms worked much more together as we believe at the moment. Just some facts:

- we have Juncker IC 2nd class with a Wächter&Lange Rim
- we have the so called Juncker oder Steinhauer IAB with an Godet (L/50) marking
- we have a Rudolf Karneth Gab with a Zimmermann (20) marking
- we have a Deumer sample board with a close combat clasp on it

Perhaps these badges are from an unknown maker who produced them for the retail selling of the named firms.

As you showed us some months ago the firm of Juncker was the standard firm for producing battle awards, but they were bombed out late 1944. The firms in Lüdenscheid (Assmann, Deumer, Steinhauer) in contrast were untouched and produced/sold awards until the end of the war .... so there is a chance that the GI got awards from the bombed out Juncker firm which were transfered to Lüdenscheid, when Juncker had to stop their production. Yes we have the prove that they came out of the town of Lüdenscheid --- but is there a prove that they were produced in Lüdenscheid with tools from S&L?

I know this is theory but the whole thing is to interesting to stop here and celebrate the S&L Gab without any further investigations

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

Frank, Skip, don't be offended by the lack of instant response on this one! I guess I've always associated this hinge/catch with Juncker Badges because of their marked zinc LW badges. However, when new evidence with solid provenance comes along, you (I) just have to accept it and adjust my thinking! Frank, kudos for your research and persistence. Skip, you turn up some amazing stuff.

I can see ak's point of view regarding outsourcing and marking up other companies badges. In this case though, I think Frank has some a fairly strong line of evidence to conclude S&L to be the originator of the badges. I'd also think that S&L, being one of the bigger companies during the TR period, would be doing the providing/outsourcing to smaller companies, and not the other way around.

Of course, if BOTH Juncker and S&L sourced this hinge/pin/catch assembly from a specialist third party, then going the next step and stating that ALL badges with this hinge/pin/catch assembly were made by S&L would be incorrect, especially as there are marked and accepted zinc Juncker badges which use the assembly.

Regards
Mike K

[Ian Lim]

Here is another S&L GAB

[Ian Lim]

back