Panzerkampfabzeichen mit Einsatzzahl 50

[Klaus O.]

Dear collectors:

Today I just received my latest acquisition from an auction house in Germany: a Tank badge in Silber with 50 engagements. It's a "light" version and is unmarked. What disturbs me are the rivets that are coming through the tank and are visible on the surface of the obverse of the medal. I have got some really nice pictures to show you, but I can't post them, because I can't access my photopoint service where I stored my images. Perhaps somebody would be so kind to post them for me.

To me the above-mentioned piece is a fake. The details are good (see also bubble like thing of the silver finishing on the reverse of the badge), but I don't feel good about the rivets that are showing on the surface of the obverse of the tank and also the catch on the back.

The measurements of the medal are:

Weight: 34.6 g
Height: 62 mm
Width (with tank): 45+ mm
Width (without tank, just wreath):

I think that I will send it back to the auction house anyway, before waiting for your valuable comments. I just wanted to post it to show a "possible" new kind of fake.

I thank you in advance for your replies.

Cordially,

Claudio

[Larry Lipps]

Unfortunately Photopoint has gone to dot com heaven. Any images you had stored there are gone.

[Yuri D.]

Claudio,

I can post the images for you. Just email them to me at ydesyatnik@sbcglobal.net

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Claudio,
Dont get to worried yet. There are needle pin badges where the rivets go through the tank.
Post the pic and lets see.

[Tony Barto]

I agree with Chris, so lets first see some pix.

Tony

[Yuri D.]

I like this piece. Here are the pics:

<img src=http://www.bender-publishing.com/display/pzkpabz.jpg>



<img src=http://www.bender-publishing.com/display/pzkpabz2.jpg>


<img src=http://www.bender-publishing.com/display/pzkpabz3.jpg>


<img src=http://www.bender-publishing.com/display/pzkpabz4.jpg>


<img src=http://www.bender-publishing.com/display/pzkpabz5.jpg>

[ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: kettenhund ]

[Klaus O.]

First of all I wanted to thank everybody who volonteered to post my pics. Thank you! It's really great to see how this collectors' community is trying to help each other.

I went over some books I do own here at home and must say to have seen quite a lot of good examples of tank badges with the two rivest going through the tank on the obverse's surface.

For instance:

Uniformen der Panzertruppen 1917 bis heute, page 86, PAB 25 awarded to Rittmeister Ludwig Freiherr von Heyl (Aufkl.-Abt. 36).

For Führer and Fatherland, Angolia (revised edition), page 89, PAB 75.

Auszeichnung des Deutschen Reiches 1936-1945, Kurt-G. Klietmann, page 115, PAB 25, PAB 50 and PAB 75.

Die 8. Panzer-Division der deutschen Wehrmacht, Richard Kindel (beautiful book! highly recommendable lots of greats photos), Farbseite 15, PAB 25.

I saw also somewhere the PAB 50 of Otto Carius which showed pretty much the same features like my badge...

It's interesting to notice that there isn't any space (2 holes) between the eagle's wings and its body (legs) like depicted in many of the above-mentioned examples.

Your imputs are always welcomed... can you confirm me this? Thanks again!

Ciao,

Claudio

[Klaus O.]

The pics have been posted... any comments please?

Thank you very much!

Claudio

[mmiller]

Hi Claudio,

Both of the numbered Panzer assault badges I own are unmarked JFS solid backs, so I don't have a hollow back 'in hand' by which to compare.

That being said, I personally don't like your example. Since it is a hollow back, we must assume it is a G.B. The authentic GBs I have seen are marked. I have seen (for sale) unmarked examples that may be OK, but if I was spending my bucks, I'd go for the marked version. As for the rivet heads on the reverse, I prefer them to be hollow headed, not round. Also, on these GBs, the number plate is secured by a third rivet, which protrudes through the badge and is visible on the rear, just below the catch.

There may be exceptions to the rule, but, as the saying goes, 'not for me'. If I can find images, and if my new photo posting service has not 'taken my money and ran', I will post some GBs.

Regards,
MM

Not sure where I downloaded these from; if they are 'yours' and you want them removed, or want credit, please send me a private message.





[ 08 January 2002: Message edited by: mmiller ]

[CSP]

Claudio:
I have posted these pictures before, but do so again so that you can compare.
I am far from an expert on these badges.

For years I told myself that I would only ever purchase one if it came from a German WWII veteran...as there are so many repros and so little collector agreement as to what is good and bad. The second badge pictured is such a badge. It is very similar to a PzAb 25 I also have directly from a surviving German veteran. Both have the cut outs around the wings. The PzAb25 is a JFS marked badge. The one pictured above - worse for the wear but unquestionably original- is unmarked. Note it has the rivets.
The first badge pictured is no longer mine nor did it come from the owner. I believe it to be original. However, it is a GB marked badge. What do you think now about yours?
Scott

[Klaus O.]

Scott,

Like I said before, I saw quite a few examples of the features present in my badge on some reference books, althogh there were some minimal differences.

Your first badge seems like my two GB marked bronce tank badges (25 & 50).

Your second badge looks like mine, with the exception that the catch on the back is not made with a round iron wire, but with a flat catch like in your first example. Perhaps your second badge, like mine, it's a JFS version. I also see quite the same type of unprecise rivets' finishing on the reverse of the badge. Not always the badges have cut outs eagles like your first badge...

As you can see there were many differents variants of the same badge made by the same maker... who knows maybe at the of the war and the lack of time and precious metal influenced these many variations.

As I said again I can only compare my above-illustrated badge with some bad pictures on reference books. Most of them they don't even have a picture of the reverse, which makes the job on identifying such badges quite difficult.

Just my two Euro cents...

Ciao,

Claudio

[Gordon Williamson]

Claudio,

You are correct, there are a huge number of variants of original hollow back numbered Panzer badges. I have seen the rivvetted-through type still in the posession of the soldier who won them so no question this type is valid.
Detlev shows exactly this type in his catalogue (Page 491).
I have seen originals with soldered barrel hinge, "wrap around" shepherds crook type pins like on the marked GBs above, round or flat wire retaining clips on either round or square base plates, rivets solid or hollow either one rided or all the way through, and with or without rivet for the number plate.

It would be very difficult to tell from a picture alone, but from the images, the type you have is certainly a valid original style.

My 25 is very similar but also has the rivet for the number plate.






Gordon

[Klaus O.]

Gordon,

Especially the head's shape of the eagle and the fine details of the wreath and tank look identical. The only differences are two: the catch on the reverse and the rivet on the back of the number's plate, which in mine is not present.

Thank you for showing your nice badge!

Ciao,

Claudio

[CSP]

Claudio:
If it sounded like I was trying to disparage your piece when asking what you thought in comparison to mine, I was not.

I have little depth of knowledge as to what constitutes a repo or original example other than that the ones I have are from the fellows who were awarded them....and other peoples' similar experiences....to make any sense of these badges. Everything else is guess work on my part.

You have started a great thread - one which has been started before - but one that we need to use as a springboard to try put to rest some/all of the rumor about these highly desorable badges. Many fakes abound - some easily detected, others not so. And many collectors are guessing at what they truly have.

Using examples of known originals and collector documented knowledge, we should be able to get a fairly good basis to aid other collectors. Thi thread may be a start. I know the Wehrmacht-Awards web page has a good section on Pz Aslt Badges as well, and there are several web sites colectors have started that have been noted on the Forum.

This documentation best starts by comparison to known originals - so that is what I was after.

Below is my PzAb25. It was awarded to a Grossdeutschland soldier named Rapp - who is alive today and whom I have struck up a correspondence of sorts with.

It is a JFS marked piece. While not a piece that compares exactly with yours, Gordon, it can be contrasted. We are all somewhat convinced, I suppose, that at least two makers of these were 'GB' and 'JFS'.

I note that this JFS piece also displays the cutouts around the wings. However, as I stated, I am fairly convinced this is a
manufacturer's variation and that examples of those without cutouts/solid background behind the wings also exist in genuine form. I will guess that many repros will not have the cutouts and I know we are looking for facts.

Also, I am convinced that riveted number plates and riveted-through-the-front-tanks also both exist in original form as well as repro.

Can anyone else offer some more?

Scott

[mmiller]

Hi Claudio,

Last night, I checked a couple of references. I saw the same thing that Gordon did in Niemann's Catalogue. A hollow back example with round head rivets and no rivet securing the back plate was displayed. I think it even had the round wire catch. So I want to back off my 'I don't like' statement. It most probably is a second style of hollow back PAB. Scott's second example (unmarked w/ 2 rivets) is just too damn convincing. (No one could artificially 'combat age' a badge that perfectly!)

However, given a choice of real badges, I still like the higher quality of the (presumably) earlier G.B. marked version.

Good thread. I hope we can come up with a conclusive conclusion.

Mark

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: mmiller ]