Was this combination possible?

[Valter Gorenc]

There's on ebay a ribbon bar with combination of TWO Hindenburg crosses - for non combatants and widows/orfans ...

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...168808970&rd=1

There's also Volkspflege award WITH swords, which makes this ribbon even more suspicious; but I wondered if the combination of two Hindenburgs was possible? According to the award criteria it could be - that woman participated in WW1 as a nurse or something, and also lost her husband/father?
BUT, if the bar is good and original, why she didn't get (at least) KVK2, as she should be in the Africa? KVM should be awarded only for strictly civil merit, but according to the Volkspflege with swords, she should see some military action at least?

Thanks for any opinions!

Valter

[landsknechte]

My understanding of the situation with the Hindenburg Crosses is that, even if you fell in to a category where you might have been elgible for more than one, you were only allowed to wear one on a medal bar or a ribbon bar.

--Chris

[Christian L]

thats not the problem - i have more thoughts about the italian africa medal ribbon (and this also should be for a woman?)
very questionable - because it looks, as the ribbonbar is a parts bar!

[webr55]

Besides the story, I see some further problems: 1) The wear on the bar doesn't look consistent: the Africa medal is quite dirty, while the white stripes in the Widow's Cross are still very bright. 2) Volkspflege with swords - always 3) The War Merit Medal (BTW together with Africa?) should be behind the Volkspflege.

On the other hand: Apparently - I have heard that, not seen the bars - there were some examples where people wore two Hindenburgs together, contrary to regulations, of course.
I would guess that the document and non-comb cross on offer do not belong to this bar.

[Christian L]

yes, there are ribbon and medalbars with a widows cross and another hindenburg cross out there!
its against the rules - but also "accepted" - as someone participated in the war and lost someone!

[Don D.]

Ijust have to ask a stupid question. Did the Army use civilian technicians and would this be a logical example of what you might expect to see?
thanks
Don

[Christian L]

i don't know - but "probably" a nurse in ww1 (no swords on the hindenburg cross), lost a man/son, volkspflege award in ww2 and in africa as a nurse ...
that could be ...
but for me, its a parts bar - and you have to put many ????? in!

[landsknechte]

Can anyone tell which version of the Hindenburg Cross that certificate is for? (I'm not a document guy.) I found someone with the same name on volksbund.de, but they were young enough (born in 1904), that if it was the same person, a "widow's" HKx for a deceased father or older brother is about the only logical possibility.

--Chris

[Christian L]

its a doc for the honorcross for war participatiors.
so way she wears the widows ribbon?
- if born 1904 (she was 14 at the end of the war to serve as a nurse)?
- married to lose the husband?
or a father (than the mum should be death also and no brothers - because those get this decoration first!)
...
its "humbug" - a put together thats what i think!

[Valter Gorenc]

Dear gentlemen,

thank you for your very interesting opinions! I was very doubtful about this bar, but nevertheless it was nice to hear your comments too.

Chris,
what's this volksbubnd site about? do they have names of awarded persons/ war participants? I checked it brieifly but couldn't find the proper search engine

Regards, Valter

[landsknechte]

Chris,
what's this volksbubnd site about? do they have names of awarded persons/ war participants? I checked it brieifly but couldn't find the proper search engine

Regards, Valter

It has a search of recorded war graves (look for "grabersuche"). Even at best, there's minimal information to be had, but it can be quite useful sometimes.

--Chris

[McCulloh]

i don't know - but "probably" a nurse in ww1 (no swords on the hindenburg cross), lost a man/son, volkspflege award in ww2 and in africa as a nurse ...
that could be ...
but for me, its a parts bar - and you have to put many ????? in!

Nurses did not get the Hk (x) that I'm aware of.
Only uniformed service men did.
Civillian technicians also were not awarded the Hk(x)-but many received other awards (like the Prussian KVK and state awards).
I also think it's a parts bar.

[James Clark]

The document is for the Kriegsteilnehmerkreuz (the one without swords). The ribbon on the bar seems clearly to have had swords on it at some time. The Volkspflege with Swords was for front-line service in Russia. I don't think there is anything wrong with a nurse being awarded a KVM.

[McCulloh]

As I remember the HK with and without swords was only for members of the German armed forces in 1914-18. Uniformed members of civillian organizations ( trains, the Red cross, occupation bureaucrats etc.) were not supposed to be given the HK.
However, this document, insofar as I can make it out ,clearly flies in the face of what I read and what others have told me. The HK document, if real, is "rather" rare. It's the first female HK "teilnehmer" I've seen or heard of.