Suspicious ordensspange from estand

[Yubari]

guys - bit suspicious item IMO

nichtkampfer hindy plus EK2 for combatnants?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=970215

[Sevrin]

Well, that in itself isn't an indication it's bad; these 2 combinations and vice-versa show up occasionally. Here's one from Tom's collection:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ictureid=16645

I have the reverse on a small ribbon bar; non-com EK2 but hindy w swords (which yeah, could be simple mistake).

As to the bar in question - don't see anything at first glance bad construction-wise. Precedence maybe and device?; not sure - hopefully the others will scrutinize it later today.


James

[Ian Hulley]

My observations ..


There appears to have been a 2 pin Prinzen Spange on the EKII ribbon and the medal rings seem not to be sewn back to the bar, except the Honour Cross.


Tom's the man though obviously. ;-)


Ian

[Priedel78]

The bar looks fine.

I would be more suspicious about the statement, that it belonged to a Wehrmacht General.

[Iam Al Bandy]

Hi

The world of collecting, and this includes medal bars, is not an exact science. That is, there are generalizations, but also exceptions, oddities or inconsistencies.

The clearest example is in the order of the decorations ... yes, there is a regulation, but about a 20% of the ordensspanges do not comply it.

They are rare, rare pieces, but sometimes we can see examples like this, an incongruity. Is that reason for the bar to be a fake? Not for me.

Here other example, that Weitze sells.

Curiously the ribbon bar is correct!!

Regards
Jose

[bytown]

Long service medals and 40 year wreath appear to be genuine.

As Ian mentioned some of the tie downs seem to be missing.

Any chance this bar might have been diddled with?

Wayne

Wayne

[Sevrin]

Tom's the man though obviously. ;-)


Ian

Yea, I hope he chimes in on this one. Looking at this again, I'm just not sure what to make of it. You're right about the tie-downs & spange holes though.

[Posting below for reference]

[Brian R]

Yup, there were incorrect matchings and real black/white EK awards.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=Bucks+ebay

[Sevrin]

Yup, there were incorrect matchings and real black/white EK awards.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=Bucks+ebay

Very nice photo! Prussian war aid, non-com hindy, but with an EK2. Always something different to keep it interesting.

[Tom Yanacek]

Hi guys,

There is nothing that unusual about seeing a 1914 EK2 on a combatant ribbon combined with a Hindenburg Cross without swords. In fact, it will be encountered more often than a 1914 EK2 on a non-combatant ribbon. Many troops in rear-echelon assignments were awarded a 1914 EK2 and permitted to wear it on a combatant ribbon. Then in 1934-35 (when they applied for their Hindenburg Cross) it was their rear-echelon, support posting in WW1 that considered them a "war participant" rather than a combatant. Therefore they were only entitled to the Hindenburg Cross without swords.

In WW1 about 5,200,000 EK2s were awarded on the combatant ribbon and only 13,000 on a non-combatant ribbon. A portion of that 5.2 million recipients of the EK2 on a combatant ribbon would only be eligible for the Hindenburg Cross without swords because of their posting in the First World War. But the number of such cases would definitely outnumber the 13,000 recipients of the EK2 with a non-combatant ribbon.

Case in point: The medal bar of Heinrich Barelmann (which James shows in post #2). Barelmann was in naval construction during WW1 and that rear-echelon, support posting only made him eligible for the Hindenburg Cross without swords. Barelmann may have never even heard the sound of guns during WW1. Yet we see that he was awarded not only the 1914 EK2 on a combatant ribbon but also the Oldenburg Friedrich-August Cross on a combatant ribbon. Cases such as this are not that uncommon and they were not mistakes either. There were complicated rules and regulations in place, further complicated by the various Imperial German States each having their own decorations and rules in place. Things got simpler during the Third Reich when Germany was united and therefore only one set of rules and regulations prevailed.

It brings to mind the War Merit Cross in WW2. A guy that risked his life in combat could get the 1939 KVK with swords and an administrative pencil-pusher could also get the 1939 KVK with swords. In this instance it was the fact that if you are in the military (regardless of the actual posting) you get the swords and civilians would get the 1939 KVK without swords.

Best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

Another example of a 1914 EK2 worn on a combatant ribbon and a Hindenburg Cross without swords:

[Tom Yanacek]

front and reverse of the Heinrich Barelmann medal bar:

[Tom Yanacek]

The bar looks fine.

I would be more suspicious about the statement, that it belonged to a Wehrmacht General.

I agree. This is more likely the bar of a long-serving, military administrative official and not a General-Grade Officer. I would think a General would be important enough to get an Olympic Games Decoration rather than the lowly Olympic Games Commemorative Medal. I would also expect to see a Prussian Order of some sort on the bar.

As Ian mentioned some of the tie downs seem to be missing.

Any chance this bar might have been diddled with?

The bar looks okay to me, although it has been played with a bit. Unfortunately damage is done to bars when people flip the medals up to look at the backside and that can loosen the integrity of the bar and also break the tie downs. In this case it looks like only a few of the medals have their tie-downs intact. There has been some subsequent stitching done at the tie-downs as well as some stitching of the ribbons themselves to close up openings caused by careless handing of the bar and pulling on the medals. I'm not sure I am seeing holes from a Spange on the EK2 ribbon. It might be just some damage to the ribbon or some stitching to close up the ribbon. I do like the bar, though, and everything on it looks good.

Best regards,
Tom

[Sevrin]

Order

Hi Tom,

Is precedence as it should be, beside the Kaiser Cent. medal?

Thanks!


James

[Tom Yanacek]

Areas circled in red show what I believe to be stitching that was added later.

Arrows point to what looks like original tie-downs.