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Super rare Luftschutz service medal 1. class with ribbon

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    #31
    ...and two more, again with identical surface flaws. In fact, this type of zincer is the most commonly posted type on the forums, often but not always given a "thumbs up" by the collecting community in the past. It's the benefit of the forum to be able to go back and pull out all these postings and notice the patterns, thereby realizing that only a cast repro would faithfully reproduce the identical flaw pattern.

    It's also seems likely that as Souval's production quality deteriorated over the decades we would see a gradual transition from nicer looking aged pieces from the early post-war years to more obvious cheap and less-detailed pieces in later years, just as we see in their other TR awards?

    Best regards,
    ---Norm
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Norm F; 03-21-2017, 09:10 PM.

    Comment

      #32
      Questions

      So if Souval made post war reproductions from original dies the real question is when were these flaws in those dies present? Was it before Souval purchased them or after? Could they not have purchased dies with flaws?


      One other thing is that I think it's a stretch to say everything that has the same flaws came from Souval. Some the 1st class medals presented here I think are reproductions cast of the originals that had the flaws.
      Last edited by kenneth wolfe; 03-21-2017, 09:16 PM.

      Comment

        #33
        None of this precludes the possibility of other fakers getting in on the act since Souval products were cheaply available for others to make their own castings.

        I've already noticed that Staegemeir has a fake of the Luftschutz, but this one appears to be based upon the S&L zincer design (another more readily available model) and not the Souval with its characteristic surface flaws.

        These ones can be spotted by the identical fake "bubbling" pattern on the surface, sometimes marked "1" for Deschler and packaged in a white leatherette case.
        Attached Files

        Comment

          #34
          Thank you Norm:


          As I was pm - ing you your additional information showed-up
          regarding the "exact" markings/flaws/dings/cuts & answered
          my question fully.

          Thanks!

          Ron

          Comment

            #35
            Originally posted by kenneth wolfe View Post
            So if Souval made post war reproductions from original dies the real question is when were these flaws in those dies present? Was it before Souval purchased them or after? Could they not have purchased dies with flaws?


            One other thing is that I think it's a stretch to say everything that has the same flaws came from Souval. Some the 1st class medals presented here I think are reproductions cast of the originals that had the flaws.
            Hi Ken,

            We were posting at the same time, but yes others besides Souval could be involved. We just have the L/58 marked example to know Souval was involved in at least some of them.

            My point regarding the eight "saw-mark" flaws is these would never be present in an original cutting die since they would only appear in a hand-cut finished product. Therefore a new die was made at some point by casting a hand-cut medal, thereby recreating those exact eight markings shown in the red circles. In the beginning there must have been only a single badge with those precise cuts.

            Best regards,
            ---Norm
            Attached Files

            Comment

              #36
              Norm you say you see this degradation is see in other awards. Do you mean other awards produced by Souval or all producers?

              Comment

                #37
                Originally posted by kenneth wolfe View Post
                Norm you say you see this degradation is seen in other awards. Do you mean other awards produced by Souval or all producers?
                I mean in Souval TR and '57 badges (and S&L '57 production as well) over the decades. The large time span allows for greater variation in finish and quality then you would see over just a few years within wartime.

                Comment

                  #38
                  I think the "at some point" is my question. We can't determine when this happened. If you were to hold mine in hand you might have a different opinion. The quality of my badge is exception unlike the ones being compared in this thread.


                  Do we not see degradation of other awards that were only produced during the TR time period?

                  Comment

                    #39
                    Originally posted by kenneth wolfe View Post
                    I think the "at some point" is my question. We can't determine when this happened. If you were to hold mine in hand you might have a different opinion. The quality of my badge is exception unlike the ones being compared in this thread.


                    Do we not see degradation of other awards that were only produced during the TR time period?
                    Hi Ken,

                    Your post raises two questions:
                    1) Does good quality production equate with wartime production? (Answer: Sometimes but not always)
                    2) Can quality degrade within wartime? (Answer: Certainly)

                    Here are some Souval S-Boats showing variation over decades. Certainly production of KM badges deteriorated within wartime and Souval's wartime production was no great shakes. Quality peaked in the 1950's in my opinion around the time of the middle badge (during the golden era of '57 production) and deteriorated thereafter.

                    But I agree with you, we can't determine precisely when things happened -- only educated theories here. But if I had to theorize, I think it less likely that a new die would be cast from a completed badge during wartime.

                    Best regards,
                    ---Norm
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                      #40
                      Another interesting example of how Souval's production varied over time. The first is the Souval wartime Blockade Breaker badge while the second is the circa 1960 "L/58"-marked example.

                      Not only is the finish superior in the post-war badge, but the really interesting thing is by this time Souval no longer had their wartime die and instead produced the S&L-design Blockade Breaker badge. The are numerous examples in the '57 collector's world of Souval using S&L designs, so there was some type of working relationship between the two in post-war times.

                      It's therefore logical that we see the Souval Luftschutz medal is based upon the S&L design (albeit with the additional flaws).

                      Best regards,
                      ---Norm
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Norm F; 03-21-2017, 11:42 PM.

                      Comment

                        #41
                        Originally posted by kenneth wolfe View Post
                        If you were to hold mine in hand you might have a different opinion. The quality of my badge is exceptional unlike the ones being compared in this thread.
                        Hi Ken,

                        I assume you're talking about your example marked L/58 in the ring, ie. this one? An important badge because it links the design to Souval, and showing all the classic flaws described earlier.

                        Like I said, Souval made some excellent quality awards, especially in the 1950's as the collectors in the '57 forum can confirm.

                        Best regards,
                        ---Norm
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Norm F View Post
                          Like I said, Souval made some excellent quality awards, especially in the 1950's as the collectors in the '57 forum can confirm.
                          Alex W. has an outstanding collection of high quality early post-war Souval production which can be perused in the '57 forum.

                          Here's just one example showing Souval quality from the era under discussion. Despite substantial heft and excellent detail, badges from this era nevertheless often show die flaws (not unlike the Luftschutz under discussion).

                          Best regards,
                          ---Norm
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by Norm F; 03-22-2017, 12:34 AM.

                          Comment

                            #43
                            I only partially agree with you.
                            Some flaws you highlighted are mismatching, some others are not presents, especially in the back side.
                            So it is absolutely impossible that matching dies have different flaws, if they are all casted they should have ALL the same flaws, not only a part and some not matching. Furthermore trimming process is done in different ways.

                            We can distinguish Souval's post war production, and we know Souval used S&L dies (as we know S&L used Souval dies for other medals...), but we can't in any way, be sure about the S&L postwar production. Souval badges shows more flaws, and all the Souval medals I saw until today show ALL the same base metal and the same finish/flaws, not matching with S&L medals.

                            The comparison with flat back badges is not very useful, since the fact that Souval often changed the back side with a simple flat back die. BUT LS 1 Class have 2 sides.

                            Furthermore the flaws on the BKA you posted are: 1 completely wrong because it is a part of the sword, the others you pointed out are perfectly matching with wartime specimens. Luckyly after the war Souval changed the back side with a flat back.

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                            Comment

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post
                              The comparison with flat back badges is not very useful, since the fact that Souval often changed the back side with a simple flat back die. BUT LS 1 Class have 2 sides.

                              Furthermore the flaws on the BKA you posted are: 1 completely wrong because it is a part of the sword, the others you pointed out are perfectly matching with wartime specimens. Luckily after the war Souval changed the back side with a flat back.
                              Hi Antonio,

                              My illustrations of other Souval products like the BKA were simply to show that:
                              a) Souval produced good quality products in the 1950s (and therefore we shouldn't be surprised if some of his LS1 medals seem good quality)
                              b) Souval tolerated obverse flaws (so we shouldn't be surprised to see flaws on the LS1 either)

                              This is not to prove that the flawed LS1 medals were by Souval, only to show that the features are consistent with Souval post-war production values. (That doesn't preclude others like Stagemeir getting involved as well, since we know S&L and Souval badges were frequent and easy targets for Staegemeir's copying methods.)

                              S&L's wartime production, in contrast, tolerated no obverse flaws.

                              Best regards,
                              ---Norm

                              Comment

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post
                                So it is absolutely impossible that matching dies have different flaws, if they are all casted they should have ALL the same flaws, not only a part and some not matching. Furthermore trimming process is done in different ways.
                                This is not quite correct. The "saw-cut flaws" that I circled in red are duplicated in all the examples I showed (although sometimes somewhat obscured by thick gilding) because in my opinion they are part of a new die created from a single example with these features. Beyond that, individual medals from this die could have any number of other flaws that don't match and additional trimming features as well. We see that all the time on Staegemeir fakes -- some matching flaws from the die but then differences in other flaws and finish.

                                Best regards,
                                ---Norm

                                Comment

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