Panzerkampfabzeichen der Legion Condor

[psorella]

Good morning , I would like any information you can give me on this badge that I was asked...
Thanx
Pasquale

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[Legion Condor]

Hello,

I think this piece is not original!

1. This piece is the 2nd Spanish model
2. The original pieces are stamped and not cast
3. The needle system looks different.
4. Of the pieces have come at the same time more on the market.
5. The detail on the front are not as nice as in the original.
6. The Partiena is in all things always of the same kind, very atypical. Looks and Artificial.

Here is an original, as you can see the difference.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

again after a word!

Even if we do these pieces were produced before 1945 say that even these pieces will always remain a question. Since there is an embossed original.

Is the piece as the question: What was only when, the egg? or the chicken?

There can be no original cast when there is an embossed original. That makes no sense.

Yes, we could say that have let the soldiers finished in Spain by a jeweler. But that is and unfortunately remains only a story and is worth nothing!

Gruß LC

Hansgünter

[psorella]

Thank you for your response , these badges are not well defined common characteristics .
They are all different from the others .
From what you know it's a 2nd model?
I do not understand , is not original ?
So you did not take it?
thanx
Pasquale

[Legion Condor]

I do not understand your other questions, everything has been said and shown.

1. There is a Spanish model and what you show is supposed to be the 2nd Spanish model!
I know the pieces very well what you show. It is determined by a merchant from Hamburg.

I myself had such a piece like yours.

Greeting LC

[psorella]

ok , but why do you say in the previous post that the badge is not original ?
What is the difference between a 1st and a 2nd model model?
thanks

[Legion Condor]

ok , but why do you say in the previous post that the badge is not original ?
What is the difference between a 1st and a 2nd model model?
thanks

Hi,

check the back! What is the difference?

Please tell me!

Gruß LC

Hansgünter

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

The one posted by psorella is the very same badge that was on Kai Winkler's site. It was one of the ones included in the comparative analysis in posts 74-76 in this thread:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...73#post6646973
and is considered to be a cast reproduction of the so-called "2nd pattern" LCTB from the period photograph. That's a long thread covering a variety of types but worth taking the time to digest.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

What is the difference between a 1st and a 2nd model model?
thanks

Hi Pasquale,

The differences between the 1st and 2nd pattern badges can be seen in the other thread but to summarize:

1) 1st pattern - cast, presumably Spanish or Portuguese made, seen in wear on early photographs from 1937 onwards on Legion Condor uniforms; no reverse hardware originally, they were sewn onto the uniform and some later retrofitted with crude pin systems.

2) 2nd pattern - presumably die-struck, German or Spanish made (unclear), seen in wear on Legion Condor uniforms, good period photos of the obverse from 1939, had a wide main pin of sorts.

Both of these types are of relatively unsophisticated manufacture compared to the later early-WW2 era variants that come from the traditional German award-making companies (Meybauer, Juncker, Schickle and S&L). They were initially a personal project of General von Thoma but later officially recognized and announced in "Uniformen-Markt" in 1939 and certificates were awarded in 1940.

Both the 1st and 2nd pattern badges are sometimes called "Type 1" in contrast to "Type 2" which represents the professionally manufactured WW2 variants, but that's a confusing terminology and probably best avoided.

Here then are two examples of the 1st pattern badge in wear on a pre-war Legion Condor uniform. There are some small variation in hand trimming of the cutouts but they it can be seen they are both sewn on to the uniform.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here are the two 1939 photographs showing the "2nd pattern badge", one of which clearly shows the wide pin.

Again there are minor differences in the hand trimming of the internal cutouts but there are consistent differences from the 1st pattern. The second image shows a comparison of the 1st and 2nd pattern badges in wear on Legion Condor uniforms. (Unfortunately I don't have the complete photo of the soldier wearing the 2nd pattern -- this closeup was previously posted by jacques and described as being worn on an LC uniform.)

The key points of distinction between the two types on period photos are indicated in green.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

1st pattern

Here's an example of the type of badge that matches the expected "1st pattern" characteristics. Cast construction, originally no pin system but retrofitted with a crude pin system and contours that match the period photograph.

[Norm F]

Here's another badge that fits the characteristics of the 1st pattern, but appears to have a different base metal (and a different retrofitted pin system).

It's hard to know for sure what went on at the time, but jacques previously posted the attached photo of Legion Condor troops suggesting that the badges showed different colours or patinas which could be related to different base metal used.

[Norm F]

2nd pattern

Here again is Hans Günter's example of the badge that matches the expected "2nd pattern" characteristics. It's a nice match to the period photo from 1939 that was used for the "Uniformen-Markt" announcement.

[Norm F]

And finally, another side-by-side comparison of the 1st and 2nd pattern badges to highlight some of the key differences.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Jeff V]

Excellent synopsis Norm!