Opinions on Medal Bar

[MLH13]

I welcome opinions on this medal bar.

Construction looks period to me, but I want to ensure the medal succession is proper per regulations during the war.

Thank you

Mark

[MLH13]

more...

[MLH13]

Last pics.....

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello Mark,

It looks nicely-mounted and the medals, ribbons, and mounting hardware all appear to be original. The order of precedence looks correct. However, my gut instinct here tells me that it is "too good to be true". An all-Third Reich medal bar of eight-places would be a very very unusual thing and therefore it must be examined with the utmost scrutiny. What we are looking at here, IMO, is a very nicely put-together postwar assembly using all-original parts. Maybe others will say it is perfectly fine, but I can't help but be very leery of this bar. For the most part, medal bars were a peacetime and early war luxury, when things were going well for Germany and parades were frequent. Actually, the regulations stipulated that medal bars would be worn only in peacetime on parade uniforms and formal evening wear. During wartime, only the small ribbon bar and not the actual decorations was to be worn. Therefore, in the majority of cases, guys were not upgrading their medal bars in wartime, and especially not the senior officers and non-coms. Yes, there were exceptions: For instance, a guy might get some leave time and have a medal bar made for wear at a wartime wedding. But it would be so highly unusual for a young soldier to have this many medals: so much so that it is a big red flag. Award document groupings, period photos, and entries in Wehrpässe and Soldbücher all bear this out. Think of the millions of East Medals that were awarded: yet how often do they really show up on legitimate mounted groups of the Third Reich? The answer is very seldom in relation to the huge number of awards. And when they do appear, they are found on small/modest groupings. Think about it: This guy was in Austria, the Sudetenland, in the West, in the East, in Africa, and fighting alongside Romanian trroops. Is there any place he didn't go or anything he didn't do?

The combination of awards on the medal bar in question is theoretically possible, though not likely IMO. Another thing to remember is that the regulations specifically stated that:

Persons that have received the 1 October 1938 Commemorative Medal or the Return of the Memel Commemorative Medal shall not receive the German Westwall Honor Medal.

Again, I have seen documented exceptions to this regulation, but when I see it occurring on a bar that already raises issues because of its length, it becomes just one more red flag.

The bar in question also reminds of the one I have posted below. This bar shown below is a postwar assembly using all original parts of the Third Reich Period. It looks really good, construction-wise, but it is still not a legitimate medal bar. And I can say that with certainty in this case because the combination here is not even theoretically possible.

I hope you are not annoyed by my opinion and I'm sorry I can't be more positive about your medal bar. It just does not give me a good feeling at all. Hopefully, some others will share their opinion.

Best regards,
Tom

[luftkrieg]

Tom has summed it up very well imo. There's just something about this medal bar that makes me think it's not right. I'm sorry I cannot be more accurate but gut feelings are hard to explain.

Kind regards
Pierce

[Chet Sowersby]

Mark,
I completely agree with Tom and Pierce. A good looking bar but one that I would be uncomfortable with.

Chet

[MLH13]

Tom, Pierce, Chet,

Many thanks, gentlemen for your opinion and I highly value your expertise in this area.

I am especially grateful to Tom and his detailed explanation of this bar. Too good to be true is very apropos for this piece.

Luckily, I did not purchase this bar so you gents saved me a lot of hassle which I sincerely appreciate.

Thanks again

Mark

[James Clark]

There is something odd about the mounting - viewing the reverse I can see what looks like an Olympic award ribbon underneath the Austria medal and the Hindenburg Cross ribbon underneath the Sudentenland.

[MLH13]

There is something odd about the mounting - viewing the reverse I can see what looks like an Olympic award ribbon underneath the Austria medal and the Hindenburg Cross ribbon underneath the Sudentenland.

James

Keen observation! I do believe you are correct! This is very strange.

Any opinions on why this happened?

Mark

[Tom Yanacek]

There is something odd about the mounting - viewing the reverse I can see what looks like an Olympic award ribbon underneath the Austria medal and the Hindenburg Cross ribbon underneath the Sudentenland.

Hello James,

It is a good observation on your part, but there is nothing really unusual about that. Assemblers would use all different kinds of ribbon for under-wrap, so they did not necessarily have to match the ribbon for the actual medal being mounted. The sole purpose of the under-wrap ribbon was to lay down a foundation of ribbon to which the suspension ring of the medal could be secured with heavy thread. The correct ribbon for the medal was then double-wrapped over the under-wrap and rosettes were gathered at the bottom reverse. The under-wrap ribbon was completely covered over by the top-wrap and therefore it was not necessary to use the exact same ribbon. The only reason you are seeing some of these under-wrap ribbons is because the backing cloth stitching has come undone on the lower reverse. I hope the pictures below will illustrate what I am trying to say. This is an original medal bar that is complete in every way, except that the backing cloth is no longer present. When looking at the reverse, you can see that the assembler used ribbon for the Next-of-Kin Hindenburg Cross as the under-wrap for all four medals. (When you think about it, a ribbon for the Hindenburg Cross for Next-of-Kin would not be needed much, since they were no longer being awarded.) And how often would you ever see one mounted on a medal bar anyway? Therefore the surplus was simply put to use as under-wrap. In many cases, too, assemblers would use the ribbons of WW1 Imperial decorations as under-wrap for the very same reasons.

Best regards,
Tom

[James Clark]

Tom

I take the point about the underlay but the bar you show has the same ribbon used throughout - the one that started this thread has a variety of different ribbons. It would seem strange to cut lengths off different rolls of ribbon for this purpose when you could just use one.

[McCulloh]

I agree with Tom.
This is just a too good to be true. The construction looks ok to me, albeit a bit too t fresh. The career of this guy would be some sort of engineer/signals/rear eschelon guy, almost certainly an officer but BOTH an Afrika medal and a Crusade without a bar (note the make: Austria /Souval) ...... ....the only real ones of those I have seen were to select navy personnel (destryers) , some Luftwaffe and a signals.
If this didn't have the Afrika Id be a little less suspicious.
Frankly, if this bar had had LS medals I would be more forgiving, but still wouldn't buy it. Both Anschluss medals without a LS medal pretty much precludes any navy personnel. This many medals, ESP. With Anschluss medals, without LS medals would hint at SS, but with a West Wall medal and an Afrika? Nope.

Any bar with multiple foreign awards is suspect. They are an easy 'come on' for fakers to make. Also, the spacing to me says English faker. Well, done, but a bit too wide in the ribbons, lacking stylish furls. Kelly's has sold several bars like this. Over the years.

[-Ray-]

There is something odd about the mounting - viewing the reverse I can see what looks like an Olympic award ribbon underneath the Austria medal and the Hindenburg Cross ribbon underneath the Sudentenland.

Once again, absolutely no issue with this practice. I have a few affiliated examples in the collection myself.


-Ray-

[VonPeter]

Once again, absolutely no issue with this practice. I have a few affiliated examples in the collection myself.


-Ray-

I call that a bonus ribbon

[McCulloh]

By the way, there were lots and lots of exceptions to the Sudetens/Memel - no Westwall regulation. I looked at 3 photos this morning that belied this. Makes me wonder if it was commonly ignored or put in abeyance after 1940.