SS Ribbon Bar (& some minis)

[J C Gray]

I picked up this ribbon bar with the 8 year SS-DA device recently.
The miniatures are also new to my collection.
Both the SS minis, although slightly different in construction, are from the same die. One has a large, soldered suspension ring and the other has a small, open ring. The one with the large ring has been slightly mis-struck, resulting in part of the rim being flawed...it also has the eyelet soldered slightly off TDC.

[J C Gray]

...and the unholy trinity of ribbon bars...

[Peter J.]

Very nice John, that 4-year device is indeed a rare piece

cheers
Peter

[Alan_G]

I don't like either of the SS two placers and believe them both to be modern put togethers using original parts.

Reasons:

An army 4 year eagle followed by an SS device for the same length of service time doesn't seem logical, realistic or feasible.

I also doubt that the eagle signifies RAD service, as usually these ribbons were left blank to signify none military service, or on rare occasion they were adorned with the mini shovel or mini medal devices.

The iron cross / SS combo:

Iron cross and Long service medal, this combo is missing a 1934 honour cross, I'm sure an SS man would be expected to wear this, with the SS motto reflecting ones honour. The mini Iron Cross devices are usually seen on Saxon ribbon bars. So think this was just a pre 1934 ribbon bar with iron cross and Prussian long service medal, which someone hoped to "spruce up" by adding an SS device to it to make it rarer and thus more expensive.

I could be wrong, but am more than sure others will come to the same conclusion.

I was recently offered a very good 8year SS copy ribbon bar, it too was made using original parts, from one or two bars. But closer analysis revealed many inconsistencies.

[Peter J.]

Hi Alan,

I was just about to hit the sack when I responded to this thread, obviously not 100% alert. I believe you've made some reasonable reservations, but would still like to address them for the sake of a healthy discussion.

I stand by my initial comment, the devices look fine to me. You might be perfectly correct, maybe these bars are assembled from original pieces. The reasons need to be discussed though.

"An army 4 year eagle followed by an SS device for the same length of service time doesn't seem logical, realistic or feasible.":

As for feasible, I don't know if there were any regulations that banned the wear of both. Logically an individual could have received the long service 1936 and then transferred to W-SS, where he received the SS long service before they ceased to be awarded 1940. I have a medal bar with a 4-year medal along with an Austrian dito.

"I also doubt that the eagle signifies RAD service":

You're right, that is not an RAD eagle.

"Iron cross and Long service medal, this combo is missing a 1934 honour cross, I'm sure an SS man would be expected to wear this, with the SS motto reflecting ones honour.":

This is an argument often used to render a piece post-war assembled. I don't belive this to be an axiom.

"The mini Iron Cross devices are usually seen on Saxon ribbon bars.":

The 9mm EK device was specificly mentioned in Schickle's publication 1941 as being banned for wear, hence I don't think you would find them on Saxon bars only.

cheers
Peter

[J C Gray]

I also agree that Alan has made some worthwhile observations, but even if the bars are postwar creations, it is not the end of the world for me as it is mainly the SS devices, attached or otherwise, which interest me.
Considering that service time in the Wehrmacht could originally be counted towards the awarding of the SS-DA, it may seem 'illogical' to have both awards when one could theoretically have the 8 year SS-DA instead, but there is a regulation which allows the last awarded Wh-DA to be worn in front of one other long service award (including the SS-DA) so it is possible to wear both awards if so desired. Wehrmacht service time ceased to count toward the SS-DA in January 1940, which also increases the plausibility somewhat.

With regard to the absence of the Honour Cross on the 1914 EK bar;as you know, this was an award that had to be applied for and was not automatically awarded and with a relatively small window ie. 13/7/34 - 31/3/35 for Germany (or 30/6/35 for Saarland) in which to make this application, it is not totally beyond the realms of possibility to have a '14 EK II without the '34 Honour Cross.

BTW. Alan, what other awards were on the 8 year bar that you rejected and have you got any photos of it?

[Alan_G]

Hi Guys.

I apologise for my late reply to this thread. The photos were on my phone, and I have had to transfer them to the computer.

Here is the ribbon bar I turned down and my reasons:

The ribbon bar itself can be broken down and explained in 3-4 parts.

1st Part: Original combination of the Iron Cross and Honour Cross. Neither the iron cross ribbon or Honour Cross ribbon were sewn to their metal tab. They have the same level of wear and age / discolouration.

I unpicked the tabs to look for some sort of consistency across the board, to evaluate this ribbon bar thoroughly and fairly.

2nd Part: Addition of a newer looking, but still old and original recycled Sudetenland ribbon. The back shows that this was once sewn to something using grey thread and did probably not belong to this bar, as the grey thread stems from an area inconsistent to where ribbons were in fact sewn on tab backed bars.

3. The blue long service ribbon, again probably an original ribbon. This time sewn to the tab using white thread, and aged slightly using what appeared to be a splash of oil. The tab itself is different to the other 3, being smaller in width and has slightly longer clips. They also looked slightly newer in appearance compared to the others.

4. The SS device is an original. But I strongly doubt that it was ever part of this ribbon bar given the evidence to support otherwise.

A good and fairly realistic but recent put together.

[Alan_G]

and the back showing the different threads and their locations.

[J C Gray]

Hi Guys.

I apologise for my late reply to this thread. The photos were on my phone, and I have had to transfer them to the computer.

Here is the ribbon bar I turned down and my reasons:

The ribbon bar itself can be broken down and explained in 3-4 parts.

1st Part: Original combination of the Iron Cross and Honour Cross. Neither the iron cross ribbon or Honour Cross ribbon were sewn to their metal tab. They have the same level of wear and age / discolouration.

I unpicked the tabs to look for some sort of consistency across the board, to evaluate this ribbon bar thoroughly and fairly.

2nd Part: Addition of a newer looking, but still old and original recycled Sudetenland ribbon. The back shows that this was once sewn to something using grey thread and did probably not belong to this bar, as the grey thread stems from an area inconsistent to where ribbons were in fact sewn on tab backed bars.

3. The blue long service ribbon, again probably an original ribbon. This time sewn to the tab using white thread, and aged slightly using what appeared to be a splash of oil. The tab itself is different to the other 3, being smaller in width and has slightly longer clips. They also looked slightly newer in appearance compared to the others.

4. The SS device is an original. But I strongly doubt that it was ever part of this ribbon bar given the evidence to support otherwise.

A good and fairly realistic but recent put together.

Thanks for a very concise breakdown of the bar Alan...also, despite the brand new appearance of the blue ribbon, it should have been placed ahead of the Sudeten one. I'm assuming that the seller was asking a premium price for an "original SS feldspange", in which case I wouldn't have bought it either.
Did you see the SS 4 year bar on the Weitze update?...it was a complete mess with broken tabs, incorrect order, cornflower blue faded to pure white and the whole thing literally held together with a piece of string. It could quite possibly be all original, but it was extremely expensive and just not worth the risk, whereas if indeed any of my ribbon bars are postwar assembled (as suggested) it certainly wasn't done for any sort of financial gain eg. the 4 place 12 year bar cost a fiver and the other two weren't far behind it.

[Alan_G]

Did you see the SS 4 year bar on the Weitze update?...it was a complete mess with broken tabs, incorrect order, cornflower blue faded to pure white and the whole thing literally held together with a piece of string. It could quite possibly be all original, but it was extremely expensive and just not worth the risk, whereas if indeed any of my ribbon bars are postwar assembled (as suggested) it certainly wasn't done for any sort of financial gain eg. the 4 place 12 year bar cost a fiver and the other two weren't far behind it.

The bar I was offered I think was in the region of £80 - £120. I didn't ask a price though, as I was too concerned about the inconsistencies with the piece.

I did indeed see the SS on Weitze's, this is the 2nd time offering for this bar! Someone may have returned it the first time, so I was surprised to see it again. Maybes the white thread glows a nice electric blue colour

Here are the photos:

To me the bar looks consistent with age, but the sewing on the back is unlike anything I have ever seen before... and I have possibly over 1000 ribbon bars in my collection now to draw a comparison too. The only one that could be deemed similar is to one I have shown in the new German Turkish ribbon bar thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/FORU...ght=ribbon+bar

#7

This SS bar looks as though the person who made it added the SS device and snapped the two retaining clips on the back and then was forced to sew the whole thing up to make it sturdy again.

The damage to the end near the catch is unusual. This guy must have been shot to create that much damage. Real / fake its a 50-50 chance you take.

[juoneen]

These praag bars are way too big....they do not look original....they were much tiny'er and as I said before they did have ss rune versions that were not metal..(25yr.)as I have an original right from the vet I got over 47 years ago he got a buchenwald....nothing like these here...if I could add it to an already published book I would, but would not show it here to give the nimrod fakers for free. By the way who is the foremost expert author on ribbon bars in the world? Anybody know? (dont PM me I do not answer Pm's any more post the information here )Thanks

[J C Gray]

That's the one Alan and as you say; 50-50.
The cutout V section at the end seems to have been done in order to insert a catch from something else and whilst I have seen this type of extreme fading to cornflower blue ribbons before, I would prefer to see at least some degree of ghosting under the auflage...mine all show this ghosting and judging by how loose the 4 year device looks on the Weitze bar, I would expect it to be evident from a front on photograph. Whilst the cat's cradle at the reverse seems totally OTT for its purpose, it could probably be argued that it is an 'ersatz' or 'field made' bar, but considering the presence of only one combat award ie. the EKII, which could have alternatively been worn in the 2nd. buttonhole, I highly doubt if this was the case.
BTW. the SS device is undoubtedly original and I would have it in my collection in a jiffy...but not at any price.

PS. Alan, I'd sure love to see your collection.

[J C Gray]

These praag bars are way too big....they do not look original....they were much tiny'er and as I said before they did have ss rune versions that were not metal..(25yr.)as I have an original right from the vet I got over 47 years ago he got a buchenwald....nothing like these here...if I could add it to an already published book I would, but would not show it here to give the nimrod fakers for free. By the way who is the foremost expert author on ribbon bars in the world? Anybody know? (dont PM me I do not answer Pm's any more post the information here )Thanks

The Prague Bars attached to both of the ribbon bars shown above are not too big...the much tinier versions of which you speak were meant for the bows or rolls worn in the buttonhole and whilst these smaller examples can be found on many an original bar, they are in fact (aesthetically) too small for this type of mounting.
I seem to remember having asked you before, why a 25 year SS Auflage, stitched or otherwise, would appear on an awarded ribbon bar and I still patiently await your answer.
At the risk of being labeled a "Doubting Thomas", I trust you can understand that your ground breaking discovery of the hitherto elusive, embroidered ribbon bar device for the SS-Dienstauseichnung 1. & 2. Stufe will likely fail to rock the collecting world without at least some form of photographic evidence to support said claim...I also await patiently for this.
Apologies, but you would appear to have the advantage over me as to the meaning of the term "nimrod fakers"...I have tried entering the term into various search engines and the WAF database search function to no avail.
Unfortunately I am also unable to direct you towards "the foremost expert author on ribbon bars in the world" if indeed such an person exists...the closest to your description of whom I knew was the late Rick Lundstrom, who incidentally gave me my very first positive appraisal here on WAF (for the 12 year ribbon bar shown above, no less) almost a decade ago. In light of Mr. Lundstroms absence, might I be so bold as to point you in the direction of fellow member Alan G.
PS. You may rest assured that I shall be respecting your request not to endeavour to contact you via private message.

[drspeck]

This is what is behind the ss device, its a bit loose so I was able to capture whats behind it:



Oh, and all the parts are UV negative...

That's the one Alan and as you say; 50-50.
The cutout V section at the end seems to have been done in order to insert a catch from something else and whilst I have seen this type of extreme fading to cornflower blue ribbons before, I would prefer to see at least some degree of ghosting under the auflage...mine all show this ghosting and judging by how loose the 4 year device looks on the Weitze bar, I would expect it to be evident from a front on photograph. Whilst the cat's cradle at the reverse seems totally OTT for its purpose, it could probably be argued that it is an 'ersatz' or 'field made' bar, but considering the presence of only one combat award ie. the EKII, which could have alternatively been worn in the 2nd. buttonhole, I highly doubt if this was the case.
BTW. the SS device is undoubtedly original and I would have it in my collection in a jiffy...but not at any price.

PS. Alan, I'd sure love to see your collection.

[J C Gray]

Maybe it just fell apart and was put together really badly... who knows?