Sudeten + Prager Burg

[Ian Morrison]

Hi Guys

I have an option to purchase this Sudeten Medal with Spange Prager Burg - your comments and opinions will be appreciated.

Kind Regards, Ian

[Ian Morrison]

medal + ribbon + spange

[Ian Hulley]

Looks fine to me Ian, it has the narrower ribbon usually used for ribbon bars, which makes the spange look over-wide.

Cheers, Ian.

[Jean-Claude]

Forgive my intervention because I'm just a novice at these but IMO

To the best of my knowledge, these medals usually came with either of 2 ribbon widths as Ian (Hulley) pointed out: 30mm or 25mm wide ribbons (no ribbon width "in between" to my knowledge). Full size Prager bars measure about 30mm to fit the wider ribbons. The 5mm difference between the 2 accepted ribbon widths, is much greater (visually) than the difference between the width of the bar and that of the ribbon in Ian (Morrisson) pictures which seems to be 1 or 2mm at most. This would mean the ribbon shown here is wider than 25mm yet narrower than 30mm. Assuming the bar is (+ or -) 30mm and no "in-between" sizes (29, 28 etc.) are known to exist could it be that the original 30mm ribbon just shrunk a bit?

There are probably variations but, to me, the "pin back" mount used (spring loaded/safety pin type) here is different than the ones normally encountered (hinged pin on plate)

I have attached a pict of a 30mm ribbon drapery mount Sudeten with its 25mm ribbon bar equivalent to show the difference of width of the ribbons. I also attached a pict of a typical pin mount device

Hope this helps

JC

[Ian Hulley]

Here's mine on a 'standard' 30mm ribbon ...



Note the Sudeten at the side of it and the Memel on the other side have the narrower ribbons and no pin attachment, the wider ones have the pin attachment .. wonder if there's some correlation ??

Ian

[Ian Morrison]

Thanks for your comments Ian + Jean-Claude.

I have contacted the Seller to get both the ribbon and spange width.

KR, Ian

[Ian Morrison]

reply from Seller:

"The ribbon measures 30mm in width, the clasp is 30mm wide. The clasp has clumped/crumpled the ribbon, hence the ribbon looking like it is not as wide, but I measured below the clasp and the ribbon is 30mm wide."

As a matter of interest, of the 3 Flower War Medals that I currently have, the Austria (no pin attachment) and Sudeten (without spange, but has the “hinged pin on plate”) ribbons measure 35mm, the Memel (no pin attachment) 30mm.

below is a reverse-side scan of my "35mm ribboned" Sudeten, with the “hinged pin on plate”.

Information regarding 30mm vs 35mm ribbons, as well as pin attachments, would be appreciated.

KR, Ian

[Ian Morrison]

Spange Prager Burg attachment

Questions for the Experten:

1) On 1st May 1939 this award was extended to personnel who had participated in the creation of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia – question: were the personnel who participated only in Bohemia and Moravia issued with the Sudeten Medal + Spange Prager Burg - already attached to the ribbon?

2) The personnel who originally participated in the Sudetenland, and then subsequently participated in Bohemia and Moravia – question: logic would suggest that these personnel were initially issued with the Sudeten Medal; only after participating in Bohemia and Moravia did they receive the Spange Prager Burg - to be attached to the ribbon by the recipient?

Could this, medals issued after 01 May 1939, explain the different ribbon widths (30mm + 35mm)? – did some recipients (as in question 2) attach their Spangen ‘less professionally’? – which could explain why the prongs have pierced both the front and rear of the ribbon loop, and are visible (as seen posts #1+2 of this thread).

I am fairly new to the Spange Prager Burg, but to date, I have seen 3 such ‘attachments’.

Attached is a ‘home-made’ PDF Service Ribbon Widths (Third Reich) from a WAF thread – my thanks to the persons quoted.

Kind Regards, Ian

[Jean-Claude]

Hi Ian

1) The ribbon doesnt look crumpled in the pictures but it would explain why the bar to looks a bit wider than the ribbon

2) Never heard about 35mm ribbons 'til now: always tought it was either 25 or 30mm but never checked them out. As a resullt of your 2 posts I re-checked all my flower campaigns and you are right about 35mm. My pinback Sudeten is actually mounted on 35mm ribbon like yours while my others (Drapery mount or loose mount) are all on 25mm or 30mm ribbons. I also have an Anscluss pinback but it is on 30mm ribbon instead of 35mm

3) To answer your last questions in part. From what I can see, pinbacks were issued/purchased that way. Drapery mounts (with or without Prager bars) where done by specialized tailor/medal shops

Regards

JC

[Ian Morrison]

JC – thanks for your latest input.

Ehrenzeichen-Orden gives the size of the Spange as 31mm x 11mm - if correct, then the designers obviously intended this bar to be attached to the 35mm ribbon - some recipients must have attached these Spangen to 30mm ribbons (if that’s what they had originally been issued with), resulting in an overlap. Interestingly, this Ehrenzeichen website shows a photo of a Spange that appears to have a ‘faint-HC’ mark – am I correct or seeing things?
http://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/nat...-medaille.html

WAF thread #558125 (link below) shows a Spange Prager Burg (with clear ‘HC’ mark) attached to a 30mm ribbon, with slight spange overlap – the ribbon-loop has been ‘unfolded’ to show photo of the attachment prongs (slight crumpling of the ribbon).
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=558125

I have done much Forum browsing, Internet searching etc; it would appear that the Spange in post #1 was attached to the 30mm ribbon by either the recipient, or a family member – this would most probably apply to the spring-type-safety-pin as well – the Spange also ‘sits’ quite high-up on the ribbon compared to other examples.

As mentioned, I am fairly new to Spange Prager Burg and would appreciate more Members sharing their knowledge and opinions of what has been posted here, as well as any other pertinent info.

Kind Regards, Ian

[Ian Hulley]

Ian, here's some detailed shots of my Prag spange ...





L/12 marking ..



Side of pin ..





The bar is 30mm x 11mm and the ribbon is 36.5mm wide.

Here's all my Flower Wars medals ..



Ribbon widths are (left to right) 25mm, 25mm, 31mm, 35mm, 35mm, 36.5mm.

Ian.

[J C Gray]

To further add to the confusion, here is a 1939 picture of the award which is in 1:1 scale in the book...when measured, the ribbon is 38mm.
NB. it says that the spange is 3 cm.

[Ian Hulley]

Here's a detailed shot of the ribbon bar Prague Bar ..



The bar is 22mm wide on a 25mm ribbon.

Ian

[J C Gray]

Looks to be the same as my 22mm, Ian...

[Ian Morrison]

Thanks for the additional size info and photos.
KR, Ian