Ostmedaille 1941/42 types & base material

[andrei1774]

Gentlemen,
I would like to open new discussion about “buntmetall” Ostfront medals. Did they exist?
Periodically we all can see the forum treads, where some forum colleagues calling nice preserve Ost medals as “early buntmetall examples”. Here for example http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=681917&page=3
IMO this is not correct, they all were made from zinc with 4 different types of finishing.

- 1st type. Galvanic silvering with application of a layer of copper.

[andrei1774]

2nd type. Galvanic silvering without a copper layer

[andrei1774]

3rd type. A so-called covering "glanzverkzinkt"

[andrei1774]

4th type. A covering in the form of a silvery varnish

[andrei1774]

© Thanks for pictures to our forum member Vladimir Gruzd

I collect them by makers for a few years and have about 40 of them and never saw any proof or documents, which can prove the buntmetall Ostfront medal theory. If somebody has any proof of existing of the bunmetall medals, I would appreciate, if you can post them in this tread.
In opposite, we can see
-a few technology process documents, which stated the medal was made from zinc. I can’t find any scans for a moment , but they are in the Sascha Weber book.

-Sascha Weber in his book “Ostmedaillie” clearly stated “Stücke aus buntmetall obwohl in einigen Publikationen erwähnt , sind nicht nachgewiesen” © , quick translate is “Pieces of buntmetall although mentioned in some publications are not established”

-Previously this issue was discussed on the forum, even somebody try to cut the medal and guess what, under heavy cooper layer was base material –zinc

- easy give away to see zinc base is look on and in the medal top loop for suspension ring, where no silver plating applied.

Thanks for your attention,
Andrei

[VonPeter]

Interesting thread.
There is an old myth saying Klein & Quenzer made some ostmedals in buntmetall and I guess they are refering to what you call - 1st type. Galvanic silvering with application of a layer of copper here.

/peter

[Antonio Scapini]

I missed the first part of the Sascha book, and so I've read it after your post Andrei.
I would not rule out the possibility that exist some pieces in Buntmetall, it depends only from the process used to make the medal. A mold for a die struck process can make both Buntmetall and zinc medals, a mold for a pressure casting process can make only zinc medal.
However I agree with Peter that what collectors call a Buntmetall Ost medal is a galvanic silvering with application of a layer of copper. Is the color of the copper thal let us think about the buntmetall.

I hope that after reading this thread someone don't start to cut all the Ost medals he find!

[VonPeter]

There are also the steel (magnetic) versions. From the ones I have seen here at WAF they all seems to be a bit smaller then the normal medals.

Two exampels:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...2&postcount=79
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...2&postcount=86

Personaly I dont know what to think of them.

/peter

[Antonio Scapini]

As I said before, IMO in a so big production like the one of the Ost medals, it's obvious some of them were produced in different metals, not only in zinc.

...I would not rule out the possibility that exist some pieces in Buntmetall, it depends only from the process used to make the medal. A mold for a die struck process can make both Buntmetall and zinc medals, a mold for a pressure casting process can make only zinc medal.

It happened the same for the Flower war medals: zinc medals were considered fakes, but they were simply produced from Petz & Lorenz...

[Gruzd]

Hi, guys!

This topic comes up every year in different forums, but so far no one has shown the eastern medal made of a copper alloy. Only zinc.

To Peter: As the photos you could identify that the medals magnetic?

To Antonio: Do you have examples of the production of the eastern medals of metals other than zinc?

Best regards, Vladimir.

[Robert P.]

There most certainly were tombak-based Ost Medals. I did a destructive test to prove this.

Refer especially to posts 36-39.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=ost

Robert

[andrei1774]

There most certainly were tombak-based Ost Medals. I did a destructive test to prove this.

Refer especially to posts 36-39.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=ost

Robert

Thanks Robert for your opinion and especially for the references to the great thread.
I read this carefully and it makes me to do some math. In post #78 you did great engineering research and stated that a Tombak circa 21% heavier than a Zinc. If this statement would apply to Ostmedaille, we should see first type (Galvanic silvering with application of a layer of copper) or perhaps “tombak base” heavier than regular zink ones, but they are not. All first types from my collection weighted between 17-20 grams, all other types between 19-22 grams. Let’s say average weight for zinc ones is 20 grams + 21% (different for tombak) = 24gram(that’s a weight for “tombak base” ones supposed to be), but even yours brass-colored test medal is 18.36 grams.
I am not trying to say there weren’t any “tombak”examples, but I don’t see any strong proofs yet.
Andrei

[Robert P.]

Thanks Robert for your opinion and especially for the references to the great thread.
I read this carefully and it makes me to do some math. In post #78 you did great engineering research and stated that a Tombak circa 21% heavier than a Zinc. If this statement would apply to Ostmedaille, we should see first type (Galvanic silvering with application of a layer of copper) or perhaps “tombak base” heavier than regular zink ones, but they are not. All first types from my collection weighted between 17-20 grams, all other types between 19-22 grams. Let’s say average weight for zinc ones is 20 grams + 21% (different for tombak) = 24gram(that’s a weight for “tombak base” ones supposed to be), but even yours brass-colored test medal is 18.36 grams.
I am not trying to say there weren’t any “tombak”examples, but I don’t see any strong proofs yet.
Andrei

Andrei,

With all due respect what other proof do you need? The core material was brass colored (tombak). This surely is evidence enough. It is for me.

Robert

[andrei1774]

Andrei,

With all due respect what other proof do you need? The core material was brass colored (tombak). This surely is evidence enough. It is for me.

Robert

Robert,
but how to explain the weight issue?
Andrei

[Robert P.]

These are the examples I weighed and found that the brass-colored core Ost was indeed heavier than the zinc Ost...

I never measured their thicknesses; this could have varied more with different manufacturers.

Robert