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**W. C. Stump** · 07-25-2002, 06:02 PM

ARTICLE ON MEMBERS ONLY FORUM

Dear Sir:

You won't find it on the open forums. It is in the archives of the MEMBERS ONLY FOREUM. However, if you have a specific question about any of your interests, I will be more than glad to pass along what information I have.

**Mark Costa** · 07-25-2002, 08:01 PM

German Order

Dear Mr. Stump: I am on the members list, I just can't figure out which way to get to the right section. I would very much like to read the discussion as The German Order has always been my favorite decoration ever since I saw the the cover of Dodkins book back in 1969. I did send you an email a couple of days ago with some questions. I believe I sent it be "private message".

But I do have several questions or comments. I recently discovered that Adolf Wagner is now considered a recipient. This was news to me. Although I always believed that he must have been (his relationship was too close to Hitler, for him not to be one) there simply wasn't any evidence to support it. A collector in Germany just the other day confirmed that he is one. He says that he has a reprint of Doehle's book that was dated 1945. All the reprints that I have seen are of the 1943 edition. Is this 1945 edition recently been released as a reprint ??

Patzwall's book on KC Merit Cross winners state that Willi Liebel may have been given the German Order. Do you have any evidence on this statement ??

I notice that the two biggest arguments seem to surround :
1. How many classes were there???

2. Was it a National of Party award ??

I believe that there was more than one class. I base this on the fact that in Goebbels diary entry of April 8, 1945 he states that Hanke was given the German Order, "though in a lower grade".
He was there in the bunker -- and he knew Hanke well --he would know !!!!

As far as it being a national award versus party --- I go with the Natinal award. I realize that the award document etc was issued by the Party Chancellery but Hitler's intention was definately to establish it as the "Reich' highest honor", not just a Party decoration. Hitler mentions on several occasions that no other decoration including military awards can match it. He even goes as far as to say that intended to establish an order of chivalry with a senate etc. This seems like a national award to me.

I have a million other questions, but these are the ones that are on my mind at present. I hope you can shed some light on these and point me where to go on how to access the discussion. My name can be found in the members list. I guess I am too stupid towork this machine.

Thanks for all your help.
Best Regards,

Mark Costa

**W. C. Stump** · 07-25-2002, 08:50 PM

ON PAGE 12 OF THE ARCHIVES

Go to the bottom of the page. Look for the JUMP FORUM. Scale down to the Members forum, go to the beginning of the archives and click on go. Then go to page 12.

**mott5ranch** · 07-25-2002, 08:56 PM

Whoa! Did you boys see that bronco come busting into the arena on his second post? I didn't even know this stallion was in the chute! Yeee haw! Y'all hold on now, here goes!

I'm so gotdamm glad he ain't from Texas!!!!! The response would have been much much different! Come on now guys? We're friends, so let's be honest with each other!

Second post, jump to the third reich's highest named award...drop some heavy names and points of view? I tend to think the newcomer is OK, but we sure treated him..........
not like the other new ones from Texas!

Defense rests, your honor........

**W. C. Stump** · 07-25-2002, 09:44 PM

SOME ADDITIONAL REMARKS TO MR. COSTO

Sir:

You stated and asked, "I notice that the two biggest arguments seem to surround :

1. How many classes were there???

The numbers of classes are very clear as to the number actually awarded. Chris Ailsby tries to add others that were planned, but never awarded.

2. Was it a National of Party award ??"

This is one of the Orders of the Third Reich that I have studied and owned, in all of the issued classes, for over forty years. It was NOT a national award. It was the highest NSDAP (Nazi Party) award PERIOD. The Highest National award is the National Price for Arts and Science in Gold, Platinum and Diamonds and had of 100,000 Reich Marks cash added to the award as part of the overall bestowal.

The discussions in the archives will be used to write a detailed factual and comprehensive reports as I find the time to do so. I have just completed the report on the controversial Army Balloon Observer's Badge and it has been posted on the Wehrmacht Association.com pages. The German Order, Pilot/Observer's badge with Diamonds, and the German Order are the next three in line for production.

DISREGARD THE TEXAS REMARKS, AND WELCOME TO THE FORUM. SOMETIMES THE LOCO WEED GETS INTO THEIR CHILI.

**Mark Costa** · 07-25-2002, 10:37 PM

German Order

Dear Mr. Stump:

Thank you for your reply on the GO. It is much appreciated. I apologize to you and to the member from Texas if I sounded belligerent in my message. I was trying to get alot of detail into one thread. Didn't mean to sound pushy. I have been researching the higher awards for over 30 years and hopefully can bring some info to the table for discussions. My main interests are the German Order and the Pilot bage with Diamonds as well as Reichsleiters.

I'll be honest I still haven't been able to locate the thread. I did go to the jump forum and go to the archived medal etc. went to page 12 -- can't see anything. What is the title of the article ???
I am not very good at these computers and navigating.

thanks again for all your input, it is certainly appreciated. And again I apologize for any rudeness on my part.

Best Regards,

Mark Costa

**W. C. Stump** · 07-25-2002, 10:50 PM

YOU WERE NOT RUDE

Mr. Costa:

You misunderstood my remarks. You were nor the rude one, I am not from Texas, but we have some rather naughty Texas "troubadours" that spout off sometimes in a rude or like manner that you witnessed and not from the mouth all the time either. Feel free to ask me anything and I will try to answer to the best of my knowledge.

Again, welcome to the forum.

**Bruce Simcox** · 07-25-2002, 11:37 PM

Hi Mark.....

.....If you are a member than you should have a user name and password for entering the Association Members Only Forum.

One quick way to find out whether or not you are logged in (with your password) is to check to see if your user name is visible at the top of any of the pages here, that you are visiting. Non-members names don't show up.

If you don't see your name (on the page you are accessing) then you want to scroll down to the bottom of the main Forum page and 'log-in' in the boxes at the lower right of that page. When I delete cookies from time to time, I find that I have to re-log in there to get access to the Association Members Only Forum all over again.

Little bit of a hassle, but not really a big deal.

I hope that this solves your dilema.

--------------------

Bruce

**Mark Costa** · 07-26-2002, 06:56 AM

Getting access to Forum

Bruce -- thanks for your reply. My name does appear at the top and bottom of the pages. I go to the Wehrmacht Militaria Collectors Association area. But after that I can't seem to get to a page 12. It stops at page 5. Mr. Stump said the German Order article was on a page 12 in the Members Forum. I just can't seem to find it. I am really frustrated. Maybe I am not reading the right forums. Help Help !! Thank you.

Best regards,

Mark

**Sebastian Bianchi** · 07-26-2002, 07:10 AM

How are you entering the Association's member only forum? You are not a member.

**Mark Costa** · 07-26-2002, 07:37 AM

Figured it out

Finally figured out what is wrong. I am not a $20.00 member correct ??? It takes me some time to figure these things out. Senility is starting to creep in. Takes a while for us older folks.
Thanks.

Mark

**Mark Costa** · 07-26-2002, 12:27 PM

German Order Follow-up for Mr. Stump

Mr .Stump : I would like to ask a few more questions regarding the German Order. Hopefully I will be able to access the forum after I pay my membership. The questions are as follows:

1. Is Willi Liebel a candidate for further research as an awardee, per Patzwalls book on KV merit cross ?

2. Whatever happened to the Red version that was seen as a drawing in Dodkins book back in 1969??

3. Are there are any actually awarded versions in any collections??

4. Do any photos exist of Heirl wearing the decoration ??

Anything you could do to answer these would be appreciated. Thank you for all your time, trouble and patience.
Best regards,

Mark Costa

**mott5ranch** · 07-26-2002, 03:59 PM

Mark, first let me welcome you to the forum. In the past whenever a newcomer would come on the scene with questions about the high rare awards Mr. Es and the "banjo boys" would make all sorts of accusations especially if the new comer was from Texas. That's what all this small talk was about, the past, which you were not aware of. Again welcome.

**Mark Costa** · 07-26-2002, 04:39 PM

German Order

Gary -- Thank you for the welcome. I can understand about a newcomer. Although I have been reseraching the Reich for over 30 years, my name is practically non-existant to everybody. That was basically my own doing. I kept to myself and rarely corresponded with anyone and rarely discussed things at shows like the MAX. I know a few people in Texas and they are all great. In fact one of the few collectors that I have corresponded with over the last few years is Clyde Davis who is from Texas.

Mark

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