Deumer Social Welfare Medal

[jack1]

Hello tom thank you for your reply.
After reading this thread below does anyone really know what is wartime and post war ?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hauer+Luck+kvk

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello tom thank you for your reply.
After reading this thread below does anyone really know what is wartime and post war ?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hauer+Luck+kvk

Hi Jack,

I think with some items it is pretty obvious how to differentiate between wartime and postwar. With other items, though, it seems there is much more gray area involved, especially when it comes to manufacturers such as S&L and Souval. I have been collecting since the late 60s and I have really enjoyed this hobby. I think I have a very nice collection and I feel fortunate to have it. I also feel very confident that the items in my collection are of the Imperial and Third Reich Periods. Over the years some crap has crept its way into my collection. When I come across such a piece it gets removed from circulation permanently. Have I made mistakes before? Yes! Will I make more mistakes? Yes! Is there any crap that still remains in my collection? Possibly, but all any of us can do is the best we can. The hobby for me is a continual work in progress, not only in collecting items but in studying and learning. But the reason I mainly collect is because I enjoy the hobby. I also enjoy sharing what I have learned over the years with others and I always try to assist to the best of my knowledge and ability. I think I know a good amount about what I collect, but there is still a lot more that I need to learn. In that regard I hope I have never mislead anyone by giving an opinion. But I do not consider myself an expert in this nor anything else for that matter. When I give an opinion I always advise to get other opinions as well. IMO these forums are a great aid to collectors as experience and knowledge from around the world is at one's fingertips. And getting a consensus of opinion is valuable whether positive or negative. When all or most agree that something is original it most likely is. And when all or most agree that something is fake it probably is.

Getting back to your original question, though: I was not on the battlefield during WW2, picking up souvenirs nor raiding wartime factories and storehouses. Therefore, in that regard, I cannot swear to the absolute provenance of many or even most of the items in my collection. I was not even alive when the originals were made. I do see your point. As I mentioned before, all any of us can do is the best we can. I like my collection, I am grateful to have it, and I am confident in it. But most importantly for me is one basic fact: I have never pursued this hobby as a money-making venture. I do it because I enjoy it and hobbies are supposed to be fun. I am also aware that the value of my collection can plunge and even become worthless one day, whether due to paranoia, economic factors, or lack of interest. Lets face it: these pieces were mass-produced, cost pennies to make, and are only worth what a collector is willing to pay. One day, if people are no longer interested in WW2, my collection will be worthless. If that happens I am not worried as I never collected as an investment and my hobby was done for the pure joy of it with discretionary income.

We all need to be cautious and even a bit paranoid in collecting this stuff. And that goes with collecting anything. (Sports memorabilia and coins are loaded with fakes and perhaps an even bigger minefield than TR militaria.) But I will not buy in to extreme paranoia to the point where the hobby is no longer fun for me. If I was that paranoid I wouldn't be collecting anything.

Best regards,
Tom

[jack1]

Good evening Tom.
It has been my pleasure and i enjoyed reading your last 2 posts.
I am much like you if not the same.
Been collecting 35 years non stop now and in it for the history and then having/owning that history in your hand.
Stuff the money so to speak.
Most of us will have one im sure but i would like your opinion on the KvK without swords 1st class maker marked 4.Burnished or plated highlights and Berlin white finish.I have one in box,you have one and so many other advanced collectors.
I would like to think what we have are wartime.
Your thoughts please tom.

Going back to the SWM here is the one i have.

[Tom Yanacek]

Most of us will have one im sure but i would like your opinion on the KvK without swords 1st class maker marked 4.Burnished or plated highlights and Berlin white finish.I would like to think what we have are wartime.
Your thoughts please tom.

Hi Jack,

Here are two such pieces that I have. The one on the left is marked '4' and the one on the right appears to be an unmarked S&L. Both of these are, IMO, early war quality, judging by the base material, hardware, and finish. I can't imagine these being anything other than original early wartime examples. Of course, as the war dragged on, the quality of construction, base material, assembly, and finish declined. Are we to believe that suddenly, in the immediate postwar years (with a ravaged economy, under occupation, and people struggling to provide basic needs) Germany is able to resume production with early quality materials, components, and finishes? It just does not seem logical to me. I am confident of these KVKs and you should be of yours.

Best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

Here is the reverse of the two KVK1s:

[Tom Yanacek]

Going back to the SWM here is the one i have.

Hi Jack,

Your Social Welfare Medal looks good as far as I can tell from the pictures. It appears to be of earlier construction with a separately-affixed eyelet. Thanks for posting it.

Best regards,
Tom

[jack1]

Good evening Tom.
Thank you for posting your KvKs.Very nice items indeed.
You have restored my confidence in this one.
Your opinion is well received with me.
I am investing in a microscope very soon and will look forward in looking at my items in more detail using Mr Jo Rivetts techniques and my findings i hope will be interesting.
I do have all his books.

[Tom Yanacek]

I am investing in a microscope very soon and will look forward in looking at my items in more detail using Mr Jo Rivetts techniques and my findings i hope will be interesting.

Hi Jack,

Good luck with the microscopic analysis. As I see it, any tool that can help us in this hobby is a good tool. But I think it is important, too, not to get carried away and become overzealous with it. We need to remember that these medals were mass-produced and that their only function was to look good to the naked eye and to be worn on a uniform by soldiers. They were never intended to be studied by collectors with microscopes. Now if we know for a fact that originals of a particular medal were coin struck and we reveal a cast fake by using the microscope, then that is indeed very useful. But in many cases the same determination can be made just with the use of magnification loupes or even with the naked eye in some cases. I also feel, that in some cases, too much magnification can be counter-productive to our study. Under a microscope, the smoothest of surfaces will appear like the surface of the moon. And what are those holes we see in a piece under magnification? Is it air bubbles from a crude casting technique or is it cold shuts that can form when a die-forging cools? Are the fractures that become visible under high power magnification an indication of a fake, or could they just be from an inferior alloy that the original was made from? Remember that we are talking about medals here, not jet engine components. If the medal breaks the soldier is not going to crash. The evidence we see under the microscope needs to be correctly interpreted. That is most critical. In my career as a law enforcement officer I went to enough crime scenes and car crashes to know this. The physical evidence will not lie, but it can so easily be misinterpreted. I am also of the opinion that the microscope is just one more tool at our disposal and it should not be used as the only tool nor viewed as the sole determining factor between fake and real. The best determination will be made by a preponderance of all the evidence.

Best regards,
Tom

[jack1]

This thread reveals another time how it is important make good pictures.
Tom, looking at your new pictures is clearly visible this medal was made with a die-cast (pressure cast) process. Eyelet is integral with the medal, and this is really important to determinate which kind of process made it.

I absolutely agree with you.

I think it is important also to be able to recognize the way the medal/badge was done, it can make the difference.

Like i said they were all die stamped and sheared even the late war zinc with integral eyes Antanio.You are wrong in your information.

[jack1]

Gentlemen.
When you have a spare hour please go to the link and educate ones self.
You will find mr Jo Rivetts research very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLH...woqRAhJ_haND6A

happy research guys.