memel in red case ????

[jabnus]

No need for namecalling, but besides you there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE at all that these are made post war.

Lets try another thought: How many of these are around in collections or known to exist? And how much more is their price compared to the ones without needle? And how probably would it be that "someone" has been adding pins to the ribbons to re-sell them? Would it be worth doing so? Would it be logic that someone can get his hands on so many memmels that it is possible he added all the pins?

Just some more thoughts, the more i think about it the stranger this seems. It would be nice to see some evidence first. There is no namecalling int his topic and imo no need for it too, but topics like these can harm the collectors scene very much. It's too bad that the memmels are relatively harder to get that the other flower wars medals, thus also finding pics with them in wear, but i do think those pis must exist. Just a matter of time.

Im still on the "believers" side as well (and no i have no memels anymore in my collection so it doesn't matter to me hatever the outcome of this topic is). It is an interesting discussion though.

best regards,
Gaston

[Antonio Scapini]

The second one I posted is from vet estate.
It is not possible that only one pattern of all the entire productions of these medals, with 11 different makers, is always the same used post war to add on it a pin. This idea is really unbelievable. Did the collectors or dealers agreed all togheter to use only one pattern to attach the pin on the ribbon? And they all agreed on a pattern that was not known as 100% original?
I don't believe.
And the Memel taken from vet estate can be a proof of this: as the other 2 flowers war medals even this one was found with and without pin. Maybe I'm wrong, but all what I wrote let me think it is not possible these medals were done all post war.

[tgn]

The second one I posted is from vet estate.
It is not possible that only one pattern of all the entire productions of these medals, with 11 different makers, is always the same used post war to add on it a pin. This idea is really unbelievable. Did the collectors or dealers agreed all togheter to use only one pattern to attach the pin on the ribbon? And they all agreed on a pattern that was not known as 100% original?
I don't believe.
And the Memel taken from vet estate can be a proof of this: as the other 2 flowers war medals even this one was found with and without pin. Maybe I'm wrong, but all what I wrote let me think it is not possible these medals were done all post war.

For me, the folded ribbon on the second one you posted is totally unbelievable. The ribbon is not folded correctly where it goes though the medal ring. It should come to a point. Does the ring even pierce the ribbon, or does the ribbon just go through the ring?

Years ago I picked up a Spanish Blue Division medal on a folded ribbon with pin that was wartime done, but not issued that way by the factory. It was either done by the recipient or by a tailor for him. Perhaps yours falls into that category.

Tom

[jabnus]

For me, the folded ribbon on the second one you posted is totally unbelievable. The ribbon is not folded correctly where it goes though the medal ring. It should come to a point.

I don't agree. if we are going to call medals bad because of a ribbon not enough folded into a point we can throw out half of the awards that are in collections. Can you again give some more EVIDENCE of this new statement?


So far there are assumptions made by you that the following characteristics are bad:

-1 Pins on ribbons
-2 Ribbon not in a point


I think you are wrong on both points and without calling names this topic is not going int he right direction. everyone is entitled their own opinion, but these statements made without evidence is all becoming very strange.


regards,
Gaston

[tgn]

So far there are assumptions made by you that the following characteristics are bad:

-1 Pins on ribbons
-2 Ribbon not in a point

I think you are wrong on both points and without calling names this topic is not going in the right direction. everyone is entitled their own opinion, but these statements made without evidence is all becoming very strange.

regards,
Gaston

Not true. I never said all pins on ribbons are bad. The factory folded ribbon should come to a point and have the ring punched through it, though. This is just from my observations over years of collecting.

If you have faith in the folded ribbon on your Memel ribbon, enjoy it. I don't own it so it doesn't bother me. You say it came from a veteran source and that is good enough for you and me that it was done during the war. I have no reason not to believe you. I just don't believe it was delivered from the factory that way.

As for evidence, I just have years of observation experience. Isn't that where most or our "evidence" comes from. If you want something authenticated, don't you go to those with previous experience? Where do you think they got that experience? Not from any printed evidence in most cases. It comes from years of comparing good traits from bad ones.

Tom

[jabnus]

Not true. I never said all pins on ribbons are bad.

Excuse me? Isn't this what the last three pages in this topic are about?


Under here are a few quote by yourself from the previous pages:

Agree, and as such, all these nicely sewn Memel pin-back ribbons for a case are post war done.

Tom

What I meant is that these sewn ribbons with pins were/are sewn together by collectors or dealers post war.

with the wide pin-back sewn ribbons. Only problem is the one for the Memel medal doesn't exist, or at least hasn't been discoverd as of yet.

This is quite the opposite as what you are stating now?


This topic is slowly becoming weirder and weirder. It started with a question about memels in cases, those are as far as we know non existing. Then it got to the pins on ribbons which you said at first don't exist and now you tell you never said that?--> see quotes!


Then you said that:

BTW, these sewn ribbon versions were for civilian wear, not military. In the military, the medals were attached to military style medal bars.

WVD clearly shows several pictures (of many more pictures known to us) that prove this wrong.


And now it is about ribbons not being folded pointy enough?

Im sorry to have to say (and still without namecalling anyone) but this is getting weirder and weirder. I value the opinion of experienced collectors a lot but on this award i don't think you are the one we should turn to when having questions about a memel medal. It is better to ask someone like Antonio.

For future reference to new collectors: please read this topic carefully as it contains a few very dangerous assumptions that can not be proven.


best regards,
Gaston

[tgn]

Gaston, I musunderstood. Yes, I do not believe in the sewn MEMEL MEDAL ribbons with pins. Of course there are a lot of 3rd Reich factory produced medals with pin-back ribbons.

As for your warning to future collectors, yes, they should decide for themselves what is correct or not.

Oh, and I still think your ribbon is folded incorrectly for German manufacturing standards. Check out all the other medals with pin-back ribbons and see how they are sewn and attached to the medal. None from the factory are like yours. At least none I have seen so far...

Tom

[jabnus]

I havent even got a Memel (but am starting to get more tempted after this topic).


We dont know everything that happened 70+ yeara ago, who knows what events occured and called for a pin back variation? There are in a lot of awards too much anomalies to say that some rules apply for them. I think this topic is a good example. There are simple too much pin back versions out there. Also in other awards i have seen these pin backs and sometimes also a bit more up or downwards from the top.

The past 70 years also a lot has happened to the awards in peoples possession, im pretty sure a lot of those "pointy" ribbons were/are a lot less pointy after wearing and handling them, let alone having them in hand by families for many decades. This goes for a lot of medals and im sure also for the memel. Does that make the medals bad? I don't think so. Here's another example, ribbon not pointy and existing in collections in more non standard variations as one can imagine...

best regards,
Gaston

[Antonio Scapini]

Tom, please answer to my questions I wrote before:

...It is not possible that only one pattern of all the entire productions of these medals, with 11 different makers, is always the same used post war to add on it a pin. This idea is really unbelievable.
Did the collectors or dealers agreed all togheter to use only one pattern to attach the pin on the ribbon?
And they all agreed on a pattern that was not known as 100% original?
I don't believe.

You don't believe in them, but you have 0 proofs to support your idea, instead your opinion there are hundred solid proofs that support the pin on Memels exist.
- Original ribbons used
- Memels coming from vet estate
- All the pin Memels from the same maker (how you can't believe in these?!?)

[tgn]

Here's another example, ribbon not pointy and existing in collections in more non standard variations as one can imagine...

best regards,
Gaston

Yes, but Gaston, that is not a factory sewn ribbon on the Blood Order. It was done by the recipient or his friendly tailor. The medal came in a case with a unfolded piece of ribbon at the top.

Tom

[tgn]

Tom, please answer to my questions I wrote before:

You don't believe in them, but you have 0 proofs to support your idea, instead your opinion there are hundred solid proofs that support the pin on Memels exist.
- Original ribbons used
- Memels coming from vet estate
- All the pin Memels from the same maker (how you can't believe in these?!?)

Look, I see you wrote a book on the Memel Medals Maybe I should get a copy and read it before addressing your questions. But wait, is it in english?

Tom

[Antonio Scapini]

I not focused my attention on pin sistem, only in different patterns and different makers of this medal. Too bad the book is only in italian (march-april) for at least one year Tom.

[tgn]

I not focused my attention on pin sistem, only in different patterns and different makers of this medal. Too bad the book is only in italian (march-april) for at least one year Tom.

Damn, I should have take Italian in school instead of German....

Tom

[Antonio Scapini]

...and I still think your ribbon is folded incorrectly for German manufacturing standards. Check out all the other medals with pin-back ribbons and see how they are sewn and attached to the medal. None from the factory are like yours. At least none I have seen so far...

Tom

Hi Tom, I disagree even to this point, I show you how many medals had the ribbon with pin factory folded (for military soldier/personel too). I made today just some pictures of the first 4-5 pieces I handled.

[Antonio Scapini]

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