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**Gregorio Torres** · 10-16-2011, 04:28 AM

The ribbon is not a pre 1945 one.
Medal is one of these appeared 2 years ago and supposedly found in the old Deschler stores in Munchen.
Noone of these medals found in the hands of the original owners in Spain have the laquer in this condition.

**Tom Yanacek** · 10-17-2011, 12:44 AM

Hello Greg,

I thank you for sharing your opinion. I know you know a lot about these types of medals so I really do value what you say. While your opinion about the ribbon is said with certainty, what you say about the medal is somewhat vague, IMO, so I would appreciate clarification. Are you suspicious of the medal I posted because of it's condition and because none of the Spanish veterans have them in this condition? Do you believe that the ones found a few years ago in the so called "Deschler hoard" are fakes?

I am now going to present my case for the authenticity of the medal I just posted. This medal came from a guy I know who was born in 1930. He is eighty-one years old now and still sets up at some local shows. He started collecting in the late 40s and he had thousands of military items. He quit buying stuff over twenty some years ago so, if this medal I posted is a fake, it is not something that was made a few years ago but an old fake. (And yes he does have fake items in his collection.) This item had a tag on it with the number 37. He told me that this meant it was the 37th piece of militaria that he bought. He also sold me a very rare Deschler Close Combat Clasp that was the 11th piece he bought for his collection. Enough of the background story.

IMO, the medal I posted is an original unmarked Deschler in unissued condition. I also believe that the ribbon paired with this medal has always been with this medal and is genuine too. This piece sat in a protective display case for decades and probably hasn't been touched for almost as long. I wouldn't expect a medal that was actually awarded to look this nice and, like you, I would expect them to look gray and have most of the finish gone. But does that mean that unissued originals can't look almost as nice as the day they were made? Many unissued zinc originals of all types have remained in remarkably good condition over the years.

Now for the comparison:
Example A has been in my collection for a long time and I never doubted its authenticity, ribbon and all. This medal was posted earlier in this thread and everyone agreed that both the ribbon and medal are original. Example B is the new one in question. I have closely examined both under magnification and there is no doubt in my mind that both medals were produced with the exact same tooling. Either both of these medals are original or both are fakes. It cannot be otherwise, IMO. The traces of finish that remain on A are consistent with the intact finish on B. Both medals are zinc. There is a spot on the front of B where a bubble in the finish broke, leaving gray metal clearly visible.

Example A measures 32.42mm in diameter and the rim thickness of the medal is 1.91mm (measured at the six-o'clock position). The weight is 13.4 grams.

Example B measures 32,44mm in diameter and the rim thickness of the medal is 1.94mm (measured at the six-o'clock position). The weight is 13.6 grams.

Both of these medals are a match, detail for detail. The only difference here is that A is void of finish and B still has its finish intact.

As far as the ribbons are concerned: Neither one is synthetic; neither one glows under ultraviolet radiation; both have the same exact edge loop count per inch; both have the same overall width; and both have the exact same weave count across the widths of the stripes. The only difference is that A is a bit worn and dirty and B is mint, brighter, and clean. The width of the white stripes on B do look wider but, IMO, that is an optical illusion caused by the brightness of the white.

Best regards,
Tom

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**Tom Yanacek** · 10-17-2011, 12:45 AM

reverse:

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**Tom Yanacek** · 10-17-2011, 12:47 AM

ribbon on Example A:

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**Tom Yanacek** · 10-17-2011, 12:49 AM

ribbon on Example B:

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**Tom Yanacek** · 10-17-2011, 12:50 AM

both ribbons shown together:

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008.JPG (89.9 KB, 144 views)

**Gregorio Torres** · 10-17-2011, 06:13 AM

Tom, thank you for your kind explanation, and for your kind words about my knowledgment about this medal. I´m just a learner and I´m happy to share with all of you the few things I know about this field.
First of all, in your first picture I found the ribbon might be a old spanish made. These old spanish ribbons are not fakes, but originals worn by the veterans since the late 40´s and early 50´s as replacement items. Sometimes these replacement items are more expensive than original germans. Now, about your ribbon an looking your later detailed pictures, I must said they are IMHO an original and rare pre 1945 german made ribbon.
About the medal: Looking the complete "Mittelgold" laquer washing the first you think is in a newly found "Deschler´s store treasure". I have several of them and design, weight and mesurement are ok, but some points are still unexplained. I´m a defender of their originality, and the ultimate test may come next January when a book about this medal was published.
It´s clear noone of these medals has been found in Spain showing the complete golden finishing, neither worn or unworn. Why? I suppose is a fault of both the hardware and the laquer. Why they appear in other countries in almost mint condition? I don´t know yet.
I didn´t say in my last post the medals from the lot supposedly found in Munchen are fakes, but some of them, the main part have some points to by examinated yet.
About your medal, if you said this is in the hand of the buyer from decadas, obviously it didn´t belong to the "Descheler´s treasure" found 2 years ago. As no fakes were made as perfect than your medal several decades before, it must be a good one.
But be carefull: new fakes coming from East Europe are completly similar to the orinals and they are perfect, without any diferences being notes by photographs compraration.
One more thing: your medal maybe a Deschler one or not... as 2 other makers made this medals and we still haven´t found diferences between the medals made by each of them. Only the MM 1 in the ring are for sure Deschler. But be carefull, there is now new fakes with the number in the ring too.

**Tom Yanacek** · 10-17-2011, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Gregorio Torres View Post

Tom, thank you for your kind explanation, and for your kind words about my knowledgment about this medal. I´m just a learner and I´m happy to share with all of you the few things I know about this field.
First of all, in your first picture I found the ribbon might be a old spanish made. These old spanish ribbons are not fakes, but originals worn by the veterans since the late 40´s and early 50´s as replacement items. Sometimes these replacement items are more expensive than original germans. Now, about your ribbon an looking your later detailed pictures, I must said they are IMHO an original and rare pre 1945 german made ribbon.
About the medal: Looking the complete "Mittelgold" laquer washing the first you think is in a newly found "Deschler´s store treasure". I have several of them and design, weight and mesurement are ok, but some points are still unexplained. I´m a defender of their originality, and the ultimate test may come next January when a book about this medal was published.
It´s clear noone of these medals has been found in Spain showing the complete golden finishing, neither worn or unworn. Why? I suppose is a fault of both the hardware and the laquer. Why they appear in other countries in almost mint condition? I don´t know yet.
I didn´t say in my last post the medals from the lot supposedly found in Munchen are fakes, but some of them, the main part have some points to by examinated yet.
About your medal, if you said this is in the hand of the buyer from decadas, obviously it didn´t belong to the "Descheler´s treasure" found 2 years ago. As no fakes were made as perfect than your medal several decades before, it must be a good one.
But be carefull: new fakes coming from East Europe are completly similar to the orinals and they are perfect, without any diferences being notes by photographs compraration.
One more thing: your medal maybe a Deschler one or not... as 2 other makers made this medals and we still haven´t found diferences between the medals made by each of them. Only the MM 1 in the ring are for sure Deschler. But be carefull, there is now new fakes with the number in the ring too.

Hi Greg,

Thank you once again for your detailed response and for your words of wisdom and caution.

I do realize that fakes keep getting better all the time so we must always be cautious. I agree with you too that pictures alone are sometimes not enough when making a comparison or trying to decide with certainty about an item. (Especially with the new, near perfect fakes that are being made.) There is nothing better than having the actual item in-hand, combined with careful examination. And having that advantage, I feel confident that this medal and ribbon are completely genuine.

Thank you & best regards,
Tom

**Gregorio Torres** · 10-17-2011, 09:11 AM

I trust in your opinion Tom, as you are one of the best in this field.
By the way, I like a lot your grey faded one.

Do you have some other items of the Blue Division to share?

**Tom Yanacek** · 10-17-2011, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Gregorio Torres View Post

I trust in your opinion Tom, as you are one of the best in this field.
By the way, I like a lot your grey faded one.

Do you have some other items of the Blue Division to share?

Thank you very much, Greg! But you are too kind. I know very little about this very specialized area of collecting.

I really like that gray one too.

It has so much character. I actually prefer it to the look of the unissued example.

As far as my very extensive Spanish Blue Division goes, I am ashamed to say that you have just seen my entire Blue Division collection in post #32.

But you and Julio have certainly sparked my interest in this area with your expertise.

Best regards,
Tom

**Gregorio Torres** · 10-17-2011, 12:57 PM

If interested, you can look my little Blue Div album in my user profile:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hp?albumid=442

**Tom Yanacek** · 10-17-2011, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Gregorio Torres View Post

If interested, you can look my little Blue Div album in my user profile:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hp?albumid=442

Hello Greg,

Very nice!

Thank you for the link. I especially like the medal bar to Colonel Villarreal. Cool looking Moroccan Order of Mehdi at the end of that bar.

Kind of looks funny, though, on a bar that also displays swastikas.

Best regards,
Tom

**Gregorio Torres** · 10-18-2011, 06:44 AM

Thank you Tom. As you said this is an amazin medal bar. Somebody offered $5000 to me, but I didn´t let go. I think I´ll keep it with me while I was collector. It´s a wonderfull mix of political and military medal. An small collection in itself.

**Tom Yanacek** · 10-18-2011, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Gregorio Torres View Post

Thank you Tom. As you said this is an amazin medal bar. Somebody offered $5000 to me, but I didn´t let go. I think I´ll keep it with me while I was collector. It´s a wonderfull mix of political and military medal. An small collection in itself.

Hello Greg,

$5000 is a lot of cash, but I can't blame you for hanging onto that one. I don't think I would sell it either. A real gem for sure.

Best regards,
Tom

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Blue Division Medal near MINT

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